Episode 76

full
Published on:

3rd May 2023

B5 Book Club 2: Teenage Dirtbag Bester

Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Laura and Xhafer cap off their rewatch of season 3 with another B5 Book Club review. Continuing the story of everyone's favorite Psi Cop, Laura and Xhafer discuss Bester's formative years as presented in the Psi Corps Trilogy Book 2: Deadly Relations.

Who Are You? will return with regularly scheduled rewatch episodes starting May 24th.

Transcript
Xhafer:

Hello and welcome to Who Are You, A Babylon five watch cast

Xhafer:

hosted by two former strangers.

Xhafer:

Now friends who have gotten to know each other while we're watching one of their

Xhafer:

favorite shows from their childhood.

Xhafer:

Babylon Five.

Xhafer:

I'm Jafa.

Laura:

And I'm Laura.

Xhafer:

And we didn't watch an episode of Babylon five this week.

Xhafer:

Well, I mean we did, but that's not what we're talking about today.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

This is not an episode of Babbel on Five Day

Xhafer:

No, it's Book Club.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Cycore Book Club.

Laura:

To be specific,

Laura:

We're,

Laura:

working our way through the Cycore Trilogy.

Xhafer:

We read book two in the Cycore trilogy.

Xhafer:

Deadly Relations.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

Have a giant hard cover.

Xhafer:

Right.

Xhafer:

That's

Laura:

I do,

Xhafer:

of them in one book.

Laura:

do.

Laura:

I have a giant hard cover of the trilogy.

Laura:

But I think we have the same picture of ster on our covers there.

Xhafer:

Okay.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah, I definitely have that best face on my cover as well.

Xhafer:

And that very poorly drawn leader.

Laura:

yeah, and poorly drawn Lita and then I have like an extra guy

Laura:

to the side that you don't have.

Laura:

Is he like on the back?

Laura:

Oh, it's from the first book.

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

Yeah,

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

I think maybe that's supposed to have been Steven Walters you think?

Xhafer:

Probably,

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

He's got a cool explosion in the background.

Xhafer:

yeah.

Xhafer:

That's uh, leader of the Resistance

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

fester's dad.

Laura:

No, he's like, ER's like godfather,

Xhafer:

that's right.

Laura:

but ER's original name was named after this guy.

Laura:

But there was a whole thing where he was like in love with Buster's

Laura:

mother, but She didn't love him back.

Laura:

She loved this other guy and then they had a kid and they named it

Laura:

it was, it was a wild trip guys.

Laura:

You should go back and read it.

Laura:

If you haven't,

Xhafer:

Yeah, I probably should.

Xhafer:

I meant to go back and read it sometime while we were recording season three

Xhafer:

and then this book club became pending by the time that it was prescient.

Xhafer:

And it's just like, oh, well now I've gotta read the book I'm supposed to read.

Xhafer:

I can't go back.

Xhafer:

I dunno if time to go back.

Laura:

well, you know, it might be more interesting in a way now that

Laura:

you've read this book cuz you'll put some of those characters back

Laura:

together and be like, oh, okay.

Laura:

Because we had some repeats.

Laura:

We had a few characters from the first book in this book, plus the character

Laura:

we know and love, obviously of Bester

Xhafer:

So the internet has no shortage of information about Cycore Book One,

Laura:

Uhhuh.

Xhafer:

dark Genesis.

Xhafer:

They're, the wikis are filled with these characters and information about them.

Xhafer:

However, there's almost nothing about this book or the next book on the wikis.

Laura:

Which is odd.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

So I was able to like go and it's like, oh, this character

Xhafer:

that's like the way that they're talking about this character.

Xhafer:

I'm supposed to know who this character is.

Xhafer:

I'll just Google it.

Xhafer:

So I was able to stay abreast of what was going on.

Xhafer:

I'd say I, I didn't feel lost at any point.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

but yeah, this book, this book

Laura:

we

Laura:

have thoughts, right?

Xhafer:

we have thoughts.

Xhafer:

We for sure have thoughts cuz I totally read the book this time guys.

Xhafer:

I promise.

Xhafer:

You'll know I'm telling the truth because you'll go to the Babylon five

Xhafer:

wiki that I use for almost all of my research and see that it is blank or

Xhafer:

has wrong information and I know that it's got wrong information, which

Xhafer:

I'd only know if I read the book.

Laura:

Yep.

Laura:

True.

Xhafer:

did it this time?

Laura:

Overview of this book.

Laura:

Like, we were divided in four parts.

Laura:

I think we had four parts in the last book as well, right?

Laura:

It was three or four.

Laura:

Well, okay, you can't tell me I'm wrong.

Laura:

It was three or four parts in the last book.

Laura:

And this one we definitely have four.

Laura:

And it's kind of broken up in like ER's stages of life.

Laura:

Right.

Laura:

We start off with part one as baby buster.

Xhafer:

Thesis.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

And he's like six, which at least he starts six.

Laura:

I don't know if he's six the whole time.

Laura:

I, I don't remember that.

Xhafer:

He's like six through like 10 or 12, I think by the end of it.

Xhafer:

Uh, This book, yeah.

Xhafer:

It's a little loose with the time

Xhafer:

and it doesn't do a great job of telling you when it is.

Xhafer:

That was the one thing I really liked about the, the beginning of the other

Xhafer:

book, is it was very like, it is January, 2160, like this is the date,

Laura:

yeah.

Laura:

There's no dates.

Laura:

We don't get dates.

Laura:

This time we get a reference, so part two is like teens, twenties, bester.

Laura:

Part three is like thirties, bester, thirties, forties ster,

Laura:

and part four is like sixties ster, and there's references

Laura:

in part four to the Menari war.

Laura:

So we kind of have like a sense of time from there.

Xhafer:

Part four I would say takes place during probably episodes

Xhafer:

like one through three of the first season of Babylon, five.

Laura:

Yeah, there's definitely reference at the end to also, he's

Laura:

about to leave for Babylon five, so

Xhafer:

For the first time.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

And mind war was like episode six or something.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

yeah,

Laura:

Yeah,

Laura:

he's definitely part four.

Laura:

If, if some of it is before Babylon five, it's not far

Laura:

before, we're, we're very close.

Xhafer:

And this book, I don't know, I should just check the front cover actually

Xhafer:

when it came out cuz it has to be after.

Xhafer:

Okay.

Xhafer:

So this is a first printing that you sent me.

Xhafer:

Looks like

Laura:

Oh, okay.

Xhafer:

a first edition March, 1999.

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

So this is after season five had aired.

Xhafer:

Which checks because in the inside cover, when the list of other Babylon

Xhafer:

five books, they have all five season guides, which they put out during

Xhafer:

the release of season five on t n t.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

put out all those books.

Xhafer:

So that would make sense cuz we have a surprise visit in the

Xhafer:

fourth chapter from someone I was not expecting to be in this book.

Laura:

I wasn't either because, well, as we talked about, I haven't, I

Laura:

wasn't like cognizant of all of maybe the last season of Babylon five.

Laura:

Like I don't remember all of it.

Laura:

And this person is heavily in that season.

Laura:

I believe so,

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Well we should probably go through the four parts and

Xhafer:

talk about . Them individually.

Laura:

mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

That makes the most sense.

Xhafer:

We didn't, we should probably discuss the structure of our podcast

Xhafer:

before we start recording it.

Xhafer:

We're professionals

Laura:

Uh,

Laura:

next time.

Xhafer:

part one, fiss.

Laura:

yeah.

Laura:

So we start off, it's all P O V and it's all Buster's, p o v, in this book.

Laura:

So we get to really understand beter, which I think is.

Laura:

Always an interesting point of view cuz he is so

Xhafer:

Maladjusted.

Laura:

Yeah and he's so like detestable in the show.

Laura:

Like, you just love to hate him and now we find out why he is the way he is, right?

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Did you find overall, I know we said we just focused on one, but I'm gonna ask

Xhafer:

you a question about the character over the course of the whole book right now.

Xhafer:

Just to like set the pace for

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

Did you find this made Bester a more likable character for you?

Laura:

I think it did.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Like a little more sympathetic, at least, I don't know if likable is

Laura:

the word but you really get with some of the events that he goes

Laura:

through, like why he is the way he is.

Xhafer:

I have the exact opposite

Laura:

Really.

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

I think.

Xhafer:

he handled all of the bad shit that happens to him really poorly.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

And he just seems like a manchild to me now.

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

Just like men would literally rather overthrow a intergalactic

Xhafer:

organization than go to therapy.

Xhafer:

Like

Laura:

Well, okay.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

I think for me, where he becomes a little more sympathetic is when he

Laura:

starts to see involvement of the shadows.

Laura:

But that's, you know, not in part one,

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

That's fair.

Laura:

he is the kind of stereotypical, like, unpopular kid we find out.

Laura:

The whole book starts off with, he's being kind of bullied in his group.

Laura:

We find out about cadre Prime,

Laura:

is that how you say it?

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Cadre Prime.

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

And,

Xhafer:

This is like a group of kids that are all about the same

Xhafer:

age, that are all born Telepaths.

Xhafer:

So most people become telepaths in adolescents around puberty.

Xhafer:

Some people are just born with it though.

Xhafer:

Like, you're born and your telepath congratulations, like from the

Xhafer:

instant you're born, which must be fucking terrifying for mom.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Especially if she's not a telepath, right?

Xhafer:

oh man.

Laura:

if she's a telepath, she kind of knows what's up.

Laura:

She can like deal with it, but boy,

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

Everybody calls him Alfie instead of Alfred or Al, and he really hates it.

Laura:

There's the popular kid named Brett.

Laura:

Which is a very popular kid name.

Laura:

I think like these days you would call him Chad.

Laura:

Right.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

so in Cadre Prime, they're all in, you know, little Cycore school.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

They have these punishment drone type things they call the grins.

Xhafer:

Yes.

Xhafer:

Well, we find out the grins are all just the teachers.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

They don't know what they are at first.

Xhafer:

They wear masks and stuff and are kind of like dehumanized.

Laura:

yeah.

Xhafer:

device.

Xhafer:

Like it's weird.

Xhafer:

They're just like, they're called the grins because they wear these masks

Xhafer:

that are just like giant smiling faces.

Xhafer:

I got very like Miyazaki spirited away kind of.

Xhafer:

I think it's spirited away is no face.

Xhafer:

Right?

Xhafer:

Am I

Xhafer:

thinking the right thing?

Laura:

I think you are.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

No Face vibes is like how I kind of imagined it, but with

Xhafer:

a little bit more of a grin.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

So just like these weird masks that are just these big

Xhafer:

old unhinged smiles and they are like the punishment people.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

But it's

Laura:

is perfectly healthy for six year olds.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

It's fucking weird.

Xhafer:

I mean, we wonder why no one is well adjusted in cyco.

Xhafer:

Like

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

shit like this.

Laura:

It starts early.

Xhafer:

was a good idea.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

They all have the same birthday.

Laura:

They all celebrate birthday, and it's like, I don't, I don't remember if it's,

Laura:

it's also the CO's birthday, but it's definitely cadre, Prime's birthday.

Xhafer:

I believe it is also the Coors

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Their birthday is the Coors birthday.

Laura:

Yeah, because they, the CO's mother and the CO's father, and we are

Laura:

all brother and sisters and like, so we just all have the same birthday.

Laura:

It's kind of like

Xhafer:

birthday.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

kind of like Christmas kind of a culty feeling.

Laura:

Kind of weird.

Xhafer:

I mean, especially from a Western viewpoint where we have very

Xhafer:

individualized birthdays, that's a thing.

Xhafer:

There are cultures in the world where everyone has the same birthday regardless.

Xhafer:

It's just like, oh, everyone, you know?

Xhafer:

That's a thing that happens in other cultures uh, just not ours.

Laura:

Yeah

Xhafer:

but it does feel weird.

Xhafer:

Like I think they make a point of making it try and feel weird.

Laura:

yeah, for

Xhafer:

Uh, that's the, that's the vibe in the book.

Xhafer:

You know, everyone gets a present and then they get to watch their John Tracker ccap.

Xhafer:

I want that show.

Xhafer:

I want the fake Psyco propaganda show of the Psy Cop running around.

Xhafer:

Like,

Laura:

That could be fun.

Xhafer:

if Babylon five were doing what Star Trek is doing right now, where

Xhafer:

we're getting all these random ass shows,

Xhafer:

or like Star Wars is getting all these random ass shows right now.

Xhafer:

That's the one that's, that's the one you put on TV right now.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

your Prestige 10 episode.

Laura:

Yeah,

Xhafer:

I'd watch the shit outta John Tracker P Cop, even if it's

Xhafer:

got the subliminal messages, it's

Laura:

I was gonna say it's gotta have the subliminal messages, gotta have the weird

Laura:

commercials for cyco, like occasionally.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Please give it to me.

Laura:

So, at some point during this Alfie is called to meet his Grandpa

Laura:

Bassett, which he does not know.

Laura:

We know from the end of the last book that Bassett is his grandpa.

Laura:

And they have, you know, a little, little chat the best you can have when

Laura:

it's the director of the Cycore towards his secret six year old grandson.

Laura:

And Alfred confesses that he wants to be a Cycop when he grows up.

Laura:

And Bassett tells him that basically like, you can choose happiness or you can

Laura:

be a P cop, you can't have both things.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

But Bester is not a man or a child interested in happiness really.

Laura:

He's interested in like making the core proud and all the, the propaganda things

Laura:

that he's had fed into his little brain.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

It's, it's weird.

Xhafer:

I know.

Xhafer:

It's supposed to be weird.

Xhafer:

It's supposed to be off putting.

Xhafer:

I was glad when this part of the book was over.

Laura:

The, the elementary school part.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

It's awkward.

Xhafer:

it gets weird.

Xhafer:

Especially the end

Laura:

Uhhuh.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

So gr grandpa like, gives him a warning about the shadows.

Laura:

Like he gives him a, a little image or something.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

But he doesn't know it's coming from Bassett because he thinks

Laura:

that the director of Cyco is a and Dane like everybody, everybody else

Laura:

thinks and he's supposed to be.

Xhafer:

Dun, dun, dun.

Laura:

yeah.

Laura:

And you know, one of the grossest things I think about the elementary school

Laura:

part is like the way that they pit the students against each other for things.

Laura:

It's just so psychological and school schools are already

Laura:

tough and psychological.

Laura:

Like they're very um, very manipulative of these students.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

It's no wonder uh, in, in part two, Bester reads some Ein Rand

Xhafer:

and it's just like, of course,

Laura:

Of course he does.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

course he does.

Xhafer:

And this all feeds into that too.

Xhafer:

This all feels very Randy and just like Darwinian,

Xhafer:

uh, very, very base level understanding of Darwin.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

Yep.

Xhafer:

You missed the point where you evolve communities to grow together

Xhafer:

because groups of people can do things that the individual can't, and you just

Xhafer:

read the the bit on the dust jacket about survival of the fittest, and

Xhafer:

it made sense to your reptile brains.

Xhafer:

You never bothered to read anything else.

Xhafer:

That kind of understanding

Laura:

Uhhuh.

Xhafer:

one day, hey.

Laura:

Yep.

Laura:

Yep.

Laura:

So the, the teachers make it a very competitive, kind of like survival

Laura:

of the fitness sort of environment sometimes, but they do try to like

Laura:

sprinkle in some community lessons.

Laura:

But community is, telepaths community is not necessarily the mundanes.

Laura:

You know, they play cops and blips a lot.

Laura:

And it features kind of prominently in that in a game of cops and blips

Laura:

Alfie's chosen to be the blip because he's the unpopular kid always.

Laura:

The popular kid tries to like, come to his defense or come to his aid

Laura:

and also be a blip, and he winds up selling out the popular kid,

Laura:

which is not a, a good choice.

Laura:

And they, they all wind up punished for it.

Laura:

Mostly Alfie winds up punished for it, that he chose to sell out

Laura:

another telepath, which you can't do.

Laura:

You can't do this thing.

Laura:

We're all brothers and sisters.

Laura:

But the big reveal at the end of the section, I think that's where

Laura:

you say you have some beef, right?

Xhafer:

Oh.

Xhafer:

It's just like, oh, all the kids get stripped naked and then I'm

Xhafer:

just like, I remember reading it and thinking if they did pull some it

Xhafer:

shit in this, I am not going to be

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Cuz these are like 12 years, this is not okay and that it's

Xhafer:

not okay in it either to be clear.

Xhafer:

But if you don't know what I'm talking about, don't Google it.

Xhafer:

You don't want to be on that list.

Xhafer:

If you really, really wanna know, go read it.

Xhafer:

I guess,

Laura:

I guess, yeah.

Xhafer:

yeah this, it was something that was probably okay in the seventies.

Xhafer:

I don't know.

Xhafer:

I am so far removed from a time in it where it would be okay that I don't

Xhafer:

understand how it was published.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah, the, the kids get like stripped down and all of their humiliations are

Laura:

revealed to each other, psychically by the grins, quote, air quotes.

Laura:

And then we find out that, oh, the grins are our teachers.

Laura:

And they also all strip down and let them, the kids probe their minds and stuff.

Laura:

And I was like, why does everyone have to be naked for this?

Laura:

This is very uncomfortable and weird.

Xhafer:

Yeah, you're all psychics.

Xhafer:

Why do you need to be like to close, add psychic barriers?

Xhafer:

Like what is like I know to, I know physical touch helps.

Xhafer:

That's a whole thing with the gloves and the physically touching, like that's

Xhafer:

a thorough, that's a consistent plot point with how the tele telepathy works.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

But you don't have to be naked to hold hands.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Why, why do children have to be naked in front of adults and why do adults

Laura:

have to be naked in front of children?

Laura:

That whole thing.

Laura:

I was like,

Xhafer:

Are we just puritans?

Xhafer:

Is this

Laura:

are we, I don't

Laura:

know.

Laura:

No, I think, I think that the, this, that was a weird choice and I think

Laura:

the writers doing it on purpose to make like stress that this is weird as fuck.

Laura:

But yeah.

Laura:

Didn't love it.

Xhafer:

And that's the end of part one thesis.

Xhafer:

We then move on to part two, antithesis.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

I called this part for the point of view.

Laura:

I called it Teenage Dirt Bag Buster.

Xhafer:

Right?

Xhafer:

Can I say that these part names make no sense?

Laura:

I thought about Googling, like what are the definitions of thesis and

Laura:

antithesis and synthesis, so I could like try to put it together a little bit,

Laura:

but then I didn't do the Googling, so

Xhafer:

They don't, don't worry about it.

Laura:

yeah, don't look too hard at it.

Laura:

And then the last one is like nothing to do with E, any of those

Xhafer:

Ascendants because that's the name of the book or Yeah, the, it's Bester.

Xhafer:

Ascendant is the subtitle of the book.

Xhafer:

So you have to have ascendants on there.

Xhafer:

But it's just like, it's like the bit from the Killers.

Xhafer:

I've got soul, but I'm not a soldier.

Xhafer:

These words kind of have a thing, but they're not, it's actually more like that

Xhafer:

one comedian who's like, I've got ham, but I'm not a hamster making fun of the

Xhafer:

killers, cuz I kind of disagree with them.

Xhafer:

I've got soul, but I'm not a soldier.

Xhafer:

I could see an argument to make those two things kind of line up.

Xhafer:

I've got ham, but I'm not a hamster.

Xhafer:

Is the level of ridiculousness of these?

Laura:

yeah.

Laura:

It is weird.

Xhafer:

So yeah, Anthes is uh, is antithesis is, ugh.

Xhafer:

Why is it pronounced like anyways?

Xhafer:

Uh, ISBE like in middle school, high school

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

kind of the vibe I got.

Laura:

Yeah, he's definitely crushing on girls.

Laura:

He has a big crush on a girl named Julia.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

Who just loves Brett?

Xhafer:

Everyone loves Brett.

Xhafer:

Brett.

Xhafer:

Brett.

Xhafer:

Brett.

Xhafer:

Brett.

Xhafer:

Brett.

Laura:

he's got that nice um, you know, middle school obsession with following the

Laura:

blips, like the list of outstanding blips.

Laura:

You know, I mean, I think our middle school obsession was

Laura:

probably kind of obvious, you know, Babylon, five Star Trek, et cetera.

Laura:

But he's

Xhafer:

For

Xhafer:

him though,

Xhafer:

it's going to the local FBI office and checking the most wanted list every day.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Not weird at all.

Laura:

I think all, all of us neuro divergence will uh, empathize with

Laura:

this just a little bit though.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

I'm not, it's like, I'm glad he is got a thing.

Xhafer:

It's a weird thing, but

Xhafer:

like, It's not, it's less weird than a thing that one of my friend's kids has.

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

one of my friends has a five or six year old

Xhafer:

who's obsessed with shipwreck,

Laura:

Oh, okay.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

like watches, shipwreck videos on YouTube all the time.

Xhafer:

Will only like, take baths to play with ships, to sink them, like

Xhafer:

is just obsessed with shipwrecks.

Xhafer:

His favorite movie is Titanic for the wrong reasons.

Xhafer:

Like,

Laura:

That's hilarious.

Xhafer:

I don't know if he's actually seen the whole movie or if he's just

Xhafer:

watched the shipwreck bits on YouTube.

Xhafer:

I'm sure I'm, I don't know that he's got the attention span and I don't know that

Xhafer:

his parents would let him watch that movie given it's, there's a, it's a little,

Laura:

That's a little racy.

Laura:

there's

Laura:

a lot going

Xhafer:

there?

Xhafer:

I don't know.

Xhafer:

I haven't seen Titanics since it came out.

Xhafer:

Don't at me.

Xhafer:

But.

Xhafer:

It's a weird thing to be obsessed about as a kid is the FBI most wanted

Xhafer:

a list, but that's what this kid does.

Xhafer:

And he uh, him and his, his friends Cadre Prime have a little reunion.

Xhafer:

They go hiking and they're like, oh, we should probably invite Al with us,

Laura:

Yeah, I

Xhafer:

because Yeah.

Xhafer:

You know, even though he hasn't spoken to any of us in years.

Laura:

because we tormented him relentlessly as children,

Laura:

whatever,

Xhafer:

then whatever.

Xhafer:

So he goes hiking with them.

Xhafer:

I gotta imagine they're like 16, 17, right.

Xhafer:

That was the vibe I

Laura:

they're like by themselves and, you know, okay.

Laura:

Switzerland's probably nice and uh, safe and all of earth is

Laura:

safe at this point, I'm sure.

Laura:

You know.

Xhafer:

yeah.

Xhafer:

As safe as it's gonna be for a while probably.

Laura:

yeah, yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

So they go hiking in, in the Alps, right?

Xhafer:

yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

They get like a, a couple days pass and go out.

Xhafer:

And al shows up in his uniform.

Laura:

Yes.

Xhafer:

Bring any, like, normal clothes.

Xhafer:

And he's all like, why would I bring normal clothes?

Xhafer:

These are the only clothes I have.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Which of course, you know, sticks out like a sore thumb when you're

Laura:

among the normies and it gets them into a fight with some tufts.

Xhafer:

So yeah, they get beaten up a bit.

Xhafer:

But Brett saves the day being the gallant hero that he

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Everybody loves Brett.

Xhafer:

And they besters just like refuses to talk to them for like two days of

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

They get to the end of the trip and he sees someone

Xhafer:

on the most wanted list.

Xhafer:

So he buys a ticket to Paris

Xhafer:

and leaves them the cadre and just goes after this blip

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

On his own as a 16 year old kid.

Xhafer:

hunts.

Xhafer:

This person down,

Laura:

Yep.

Xhafer:

Gets shot by one of their compatriots,

Laura:

Yep.

Xhafer:

Puts out a telepathic signal for help of which a retired P cop answers

Laura:

Uhhuh.

Xhafer:

saves ster arrests.

Xhafer:

The one dude has to kill the other and basically brings them in.

Xhafer:

Ster wakes up from his like mind wake coma thing.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

And finds out that one of the p cops, like who came to try and

Xhafer:

apprehend these people got killed

Xhafer:

and that he didn't, and that he is now in trouble for being a blip himself

Xhafer:

because

Xhafer:

he ran off

Laura:

of ran away.

Xhafer:

without getting authorization.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

He's made some typical teenager, didn't think it through mistakes

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

he, he wound up getting somebody killed.

Laura:

That's not good.

Laura:

And not, not the bad guy.

Laura:

One of the good guys he got killed in addition to some bad guys.

Xhafer:

So

Xhafer:

This is Becher's first interaction with the new director who was

Xhafer:

overseeing his trial personally.

Xhafer:

That's normal.

Laura:

Uhhuh.

Xhafer:

And the retired P cop we get a name for him uh, Sandoval Bay.

Laura:

He wasn't in the first book.

Laura:

He's not one of our repeats.

Xhafer:

No, but he does know Bassett.

Laura:

Uhhuh?

Xhafer:

They were friends.

Xhafer:

He used to be in his like executive office and stuff,

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

and so uh, he kind of leverages his position to instruct at the

Xhafer:

school and take ster under his wing and kind of just be like, look, I'm

Xhafer:

just gonna take care of this kid.

Xhafer:

Don't worry about it.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

And he is not gonna go easy on him either.

Laura:

He puts him through some extreme punishment of making him act as a statue

Laura:

on the campus, especially in front of the younger, more immature children who

Laura:

are allowed to do whatever they want to.

Laura:

The statue basically.

Laura:

He can't move, he can't use any of his side powers.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

They get to dress him up, they get to put lipstick on him.

Laura:

They get to, you know, watch pigeons poop on him.

Laura:

Like, I think, I think that's something they do is they like

Laura:

feed a bunch of pigeons around him.

Laura:

So they'll all sit on him and poop on him.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

kids can be cruel.

Laura:

Especially when they're told like, it's good to be cruel to this person.

Laura:

They

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

they go to town.

Laura:

yeah.

Laura:

And he also, you know, he, he's, he's doing this extraordinary

Laura:

punishment of being a statue.

Laura:

He's solitary confinement, I think, whenever he's not a statue.

Laura:

And then he also makes him watch old Japanese movies, cuz the,

Xhafer:

Rashman

Laura:

yeah.

Laura:

And I've never seen this movie.

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

Um, I watched this when I was in film school

Laura:

oh, well that makes sense.

Laura:

Yeah

Xhafer:

I did a, actually, I talked about this on the

Xhafer:

Discord very briefly today too.

Xhafer:

When I was in college, I did a year, year and a half as a cinema arts major.

Laura:

yeah, yeah.

Laura:

This sounds like a very like film school kind of movie that you

Laura:

would study in that environment.

Laura:

Not, not one I'm familiar with, but maybe I'll have to go watch it.

Laura:

Because you know, there, it's referenced a couple times in this

Laura:

book in just vague enough ways.

Laura:

It's like, oh, okay.

Laura:

Maybe I wanna know what that's about.

Xhafer:

Yeah, so they reference the the like the storytelling conceit of

Xhafer:

Rushman.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Um, This is a Kurosawa film.

Xhafer:

This is like an all-time classic, right?

Xhafer:

And it's basically, we get the same story told from four different perspectives

Xhafer:

and each of them is different.

Xhafer:

And so it's kind of just like the truth is, Somewhere in the

Xhafer:

middle, you know, it's never really the what you expect it to be

Laura:

A three edge sword even.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

So the name of this mo, it's uh, Rushman is Japanese for dispute,

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

and it's just kind of because of this movie and the book that

Xhafer:

it was based on, I think it's just kind of been shorthand in cinema

Xhafer:

for stories with this structure.

Xhafer:

So there, there have been episodes of TV that follow the, the Rushman structure.

Laura:

Yeah, it's such a convention that I feel like I am familiar with it, even

Laura:

though I'm not familiar with this movie.

Xhafer:

Pulp Fiction has a little bit like it.

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

Narc the Gently Film Hero.

Xhafer:

JFK is a rushman style story with everyone giving their thing.

Xhafer:

The Last Jedi does it.

Xhafer:

Yeah, totally does.

Xhafer:

With the, the telling of uh, Kyle Lorenz Fall, the Darkness.

Xhafer:

You get Luke's version and, and Kyla's version.

Laura:

Yeah, sure.

Xhafer:

30 Rock had an episode that was like this.

Xhafer:

Hitchcock used it a couple times.

Xhafer:

All kinds of stuff.

Laura:

They need a lower decks episode where we do the rashman.

Xhafer:

Star Trek.

Xhafer:

Star Trek's done this.

Xhafer:

There's an episode of Voyager.

Xhafer:

That's like

Laura:

is it the one where the doctor is like recounting to, as in the future?

Laura:

They're, they're saying what Voyager's story was, and

Laura:

he's like, no, you're wrong.

Xhafer:

Yes, that is kind of it, but we only get like the two perspectives.

Xhafer:

There's a NextGen episode which has a holodeck aided version of this trope.

Xhafer:

They use the holodeck to get people, like a reporter or an investigator comes

Xhafer:

and gets everyone's stories and takes everyone's different versions of the

Xhafer:

stories and feeds them into the computer, and the computer spits out a version

Xhafer:

that it considers to be the truth.

Xhafer:

And so they go through the different perspectives and then the like final one.

Xhafer:

and so.

Xhafer:

Yeah, he has to watch Rashman bringing us back.

Laura:

Uhhuh

Xhafer:

and it's used as a lesson to be like, this is what it's like when you

Xhafer:

scan people's minds at a crime scene.

Xhafer:

Like everyone's gonna have remember things differently.

Xhafer:

The truth will be somewhere in the middle.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

And he's, he's getting more thoughtful at the end of the, his punishment time.

Laura:

And near the end of this time mysterious girl shows up.

Laura:

And instead of like tormenting the statue, she kisses him

Laura:

and he's super into it.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

He really likes being forced to not be able to move a bone in his

Xhafer:

body while someone kisses him.

Xhafer:

That explains all the black leather suits he wears.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yep.

Laura:

Awakens something inside, I guess.

Laura:

Cool, cool, cool.

Laura:

So we find out Dr.

Laura:

Bay is also a like classical music fan

Laura:

and he listens to Stravinsky.

Laura:

The ride of spring when he's upset about stuff, apparently.

Laura:

I guess.

Laura:

That's good.

Laura:

I'm upset about stuff.

Laura:

Music.

Xhafer:

There are weirder choices.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

No, it's, it's nice and thematic.

Laura:

It

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

But he, he rewards Buster for all of his hard work and

Laura:

being punished and learning stuff with getting to go on a hunt.

Xhafer:

Yep.

Xhafer:

One of his classmates.

Laura:

A former classmate has gone blip.

Laura:

She's gone

Laura:

rogue.

Xhafer:

And so they go and they find her and she has been

Xhafer:

sold into human trafficking

Xhafer:

effectively.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

She gets raped and murdered

Laura:

basically.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

It's real dark shit.

Laura:

yeah.

Laura:

And you know, as they are trying to, Get justice or at least, you

Laura:

know, get this incident wrapped up.

Laura:

Ster kind of gets a feeling that Bay is resentful of the core, like,

Laura:

or something he's not covering up his feelings very well.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

I mean this tracks with what we know of Bassett too.

Laura:

Uhhuh?

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

You know, I feel like Bay is very much a vat style

Xhafer:

Cycore guy, where it's like the core needs to do these things

Xhafer:

for this future, and every, every telepath we push away is a problem.

Xhafer:

And VAT also, you know, wanted the resistance to exist because

Xhafer:

it would, you know, force them to breed a better telepath between

Xhafer:

having these two factions.

Xhafer:

You know, it

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

his whole mindset.

Laura:

He started that way, and then after his encounter with

Laura:

the Volans, he was like, oh wait, no, we need to all come together.

Laura:

And kind of changed his tune a little bit and really tried to like bring

Laura:

the resistance back into the fold.

Laura:

But of course the damage is done right.

Laura:

You know, you've already stoked that fire.

Laura:

You can't uh, you can't put that Pandora back in the box or whatever.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

Yeah, so this is a pretty formative experience for little

Laura:

twenties, bester, And uh, you know, we see him a little bit later.

Laura:

I think this is probably the twenties Bester.

Laura:

He's become a little bit better at making friends.

Laura:

Like Bay has kind of taught him like, you need people and

Laura:

you need community around you.

Laura:

And so he is a little bit better at making friends, at least with the younger cohort.

Laura:

Maybe not his own peers.

Xhafer:

I would say that they are of the same emotional development as him.

Laura:

Yeah, I think that's totally fair.

Laura:

Like he's a little bit emotionally behind.

Laura:

So he's found

Xhafer:

some

Xhafer:

younger friends, he probably has more in common with them.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura:

Bay calls him up and basically says, you know, the new director has got it out for

Laura:

me and Dave, he's got it out for you too.

Laura:

So we can't, we can't keep, you know, being mentor and mentee.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

We need to keep you safe.

Laura:

And then a few months later, whoops.

Laura:

Bay's been found, aiding, rogues, and committed suicide with big

Laura:

old air quotes around that.

Xhafer:

Yeah, I mean, obviously this is you know, the director and

Xhafer:

Bester has feelings about whether or not Bay would ever kill himself,

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

Thinking that it was all a set up.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

So again, sometime later, probably early twenties Buster.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

We are doing field tests to see what kind of psych cops were gonna be,

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

It's the final exam.

Laura:

And surprise, surprise, the girl who kissed him is in his

Laura:

cohort for the final exam.

Xhafer:

Oh

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

They've never talked about it.

Laura:

They've never spoken about what happened.

Xhafer:

And so of course the perfect time too is in the middle of a

Xhafer:

final exam while you're hiking

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Basically they're like dropped in the middle of the

Laura:

wilderness to track somebody.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

They don't even know where they're at.

Laura:

Like they're not even told where they're going.

Laura:

And we find out that this girl's name is Liz Montoya.

Laura:

Elizabeth Montoya.

Laura:

And she kind of has for me a little bit of that like fiery

Laura:

Latina stereotype going on because

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Yeah, she's definitely uh, a fiery type.

Xhafer:

She's, she's a very passionate person.

Laura:

yeah, she's, she's very cheeky with the teacher.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

She's, she's bold, extroverted, and you know, you get the feeling that

Laura:

she's like a sexually confident person even though she's like a teenager

Xhafer:

Well, they're tw I

Xhafer:

I assume that like I, they gotta be, I think, I feel like this is college.

Xhafer:

I feel like this is Sycor College and they are all 20 plus

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

21, 22.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Like getting ready to graduate.

Laura:

She is a later versus a prime.

Laura:

He's, you know, one of the, the cadre primes, but she was

Laura:

later, she came in at about 12.

Laura:

We think.

Xhafer:

Oh, the Wiki actually has dates for when this happens.

Laura:

Oh, really?

Xhafer:

Yeah, so this is 2208.

Laura:

Okay,

Xhafer:

She was born in 2189, so she's 19.

Xhafer:

When they go on this field test.

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

I buy that.

Laura:

That's like freshman to sophomore in college, depending on when you started

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

And Veer was born the same year.

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

Okay.

Laura:

So they're

Xhafer:

Isn't they're 19.

Xhafer:

Okay.

Laura:

All right.

Laura:

Everything's legal.

Laura:

I guess

Xhafer:

I mean, I know what I was doing in college when I was

Xhafer:

19, and so I am not going to be judging anyone for any of their

Xhafer:

choices here.

Laura:

any stones in our

Laura:

glass houses.

Xhafer:

Nope.

Xhafer:

Not today.

Laura:

Yep.

Laura:

Keep these windows nice.

Laura:

So the solution to the field test winds up being that you're not supposed to

Laura:

totally track the blip all on your own.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

It was a trick.

Xhafer:

Yep.

Xhafer:

So they, they get into town where they followed this blip to, and they

Xhafer:

go to the Cycore office to let them know as they're supposed to, when

Xhafer:

they're in the area, when they're Cy cops and they're like, you passed.

Xhafer:

That was the whole test.

Laura:

Congrats.

Laura:

And I mean, I guess I get it, you know, it's, it's that whole community thing.

Laura:

It's like, you know being a lone wolf is more dangerous to yourself

Laura:

and others than working together.

Laura:

So it's that kind of Darwin less, and you were talking about that

Laura:

we form communities for a reason,

Laura:

so

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

yeah.

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

I buy it.

Laura:

But you know, as they, as they've been on this trip, they've been

Laura:

talking about their uh, feelings and stuff, and so uh, yeah.

Laura:

They, they become an item sort of as much as you can be when you're not supposed

Laura:

to uh, be out and about with that.

Laura:

So,

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

and you do feel for him because they seem to genuinely love each other in

Laura:

the, the chapter where it's described and,

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

Bester does jump the gun a little bit.

Xhafer:

Uh, They are together for a

Laura:

Uhhuh.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

and he goes and gets the genetic profile testing done to know

Xhafer:

if they are a cyco approved match

Laura:

Right.

Xhafer:

for genetic compatibility.

Xhafer:

Since they're both P twelves.

Xhafer:

P twelves gotta have babies with p twelves to make more p twelves because

Xhafer:

you need those p twelves.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

I kind of equate this to like, the, the way that Liz probably feels is that

Laura:

how I would feel if somebody had like gone to my father to ask permission

Laura:

to marry me before actually inquiring with me if I wanted to marry them.

Laura:

You know, like that's, that's not how we did it.

Laura:

Spoilers, like and I know that for some people that's a thing that

Laura:

they want, but no, that's not how

Xhafer:

No, I'm not.

Xhafer:

I, I, if it is important for those parties, cool.

Xhafer:

I'm not here to shit on anyone.

Xhafer:

Uh, If it's, if it's a thing that's important to you, it's important

Xhafer:

to you and that makes it important.

Xhafer:

It's value is exists because the parties involved feel it is important.

Xhafer:

And one of those parties is not the father to be absolutely clear.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

So,

Laura:

Yeah, yeah.

Laura:

He, he basically goes to

Xhafer:

but I'm right there with you.

Laura:

Before, before talking to her about it.

Laura:

And

Xhafer:

Not, okay.

Xhafer:

It was weird choice at, at the least.

Xhafer:

Um, And definitely not.

Xhafer:

Okay.

Xhafer:

At the worst.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

And, but I don't think her beef is as much with the fact that he did that as the fact

Laura:

that they have to consider that at all.

Laura:

Like,

Xhafer:

Cuz she didn't, she didn't cuz she didn't care.

Laura:

Right.

Laura:

And you know that she does not have control over her own, like

Laura:

reproductive destiny in the cyco.

Xhafer:

Huh?

Xhafer:

Be terrible if that was relatable.

Xhafer:

Uh,

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

It, it makes her really uncomfortable that ultimately who she matches

Laura:

up with has to be signed off on by completely unrelated parties.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

So this, this whole thing sets off a chain that, you know,

Laura:

she realizes that if she passes all of these classes, this is it.

Laura:

She's in Cyco and she can't leave and she doesn't have control over her own destiny.

Laura:

And so Liz makes plans to leave and she asks Al to come with her.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

And he does not.

Xhafer:

Yep.

Xhafer:

And he turns her in.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

He can't even just let her go.

Laura:

Like he's, he's convinced that the reeducation camps are the right

Laura:

thing for her and she will be okay.

Laura:

And,

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

He's very bought, he's very bought into the propaganda.

Laura:

He's very bought into the core.

Laura:

It's all he has.

Laura:

It's all he's ever had.

Laura:

And that's the last we hear of Liz.

Xhafer:

Yep.

Laura:

She's taken away by the psych ops, so

Xhafer:

And he's got like finals next week, so he doesn't even

Xhafer:

get to deal with it emotionally.

Xhafer:

Not that he would have if he had the time.

Laura:

That's true.

Laura:

That's true.

Xhafer:

Ugh.

Laura:

So we move on into synthesis, synthesis.

Laura:

Sy and thirties bester, ish.

Xhafer:

feel like I remember none of this section of the book.

Xhafer:

Like I have, I have three, the three things that happen in

Xhafer:

this section in my mind, and I can do them each in a sentence.

Xhafer:

And that's the whole section to me.

Laura:

It does go very fast.

Xhafer:

Does it.

Xhafer:

Okay.

Xhafer:

That makes me feel better because I read this yesterday.

Laura:

Uhhuh.

Laura:

and

Laura:

Some of these chapters are very short.

Laura:

That's what makes this book such a good read too.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

Minus is 40 pages, so it is a pretty quick, quick section.

Xhafer:

Yep.

Xhafer:

Uh, Ster joins the cyco.

Xhafer:

He gets his arranged marriage.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

He has has a kid, they have a son.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

Who we never talk about, but we know exists.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

We don't even get his name.

Laura:

Right.

Laura:

Also, in one of the episodes of Babylon five, he mentions having a daughter,

Laura:

like a, a chi, like a young daughter.

Laura:

So I was like uh,

Xhafer:

That's in the next book, I think.

Laura:

you think that's gonna come with it there?

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

Cuz

Xhafer:

I think it comes up there.

Laura:

yeah, it, it did not come up in this book at all.

Laura:

But yeah, he's blossomed into full P Op, so it starts out with

Laura:

him like hunting a random blip.

Laura:

But really he should have seen that Steven Walters, the head of the

Laura:

resistance, was also involved and he was this close to catching the head of the

Laura:

resistance and doned up.

Xhafer:

Yep.

Xhafer:

Okay.

Xhafer:

I just checked on the wiki and this child is born the same year.

Xhafer:

Babylon four disappears, the daughter,

Laura:

Okay.

Xhafer:

so it happens during the next chapter and is un commented on

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

So the daughter's not even mentioned because he mentions

Laura:

the son again in part four.

Laura:

Okay, cool.

Laura:

Now I know how we feel about daughters.

Xhafer:

mean, he doesn't say his son's name at any point.

Xhafer:

It's,

Xhafer:

it's how he feels about kids, I

Xhafer:

think.

Xhafer:

Uh, But he, he's a shitty dad, so,

Laura:

yeah,

Xhafer:

At the very least, he's absentee.

Xhafer:

Maybe that's better.

Xhafer:

Maybe he's a better father by being absentee,

Xhafer:

if we're being perfectly honest.

Xhafer:

Who know?

Xhafer:

He might not be involved in raising these kids though, cuz if they're born

Xhafer:

telepathic, then they just go to TEEP town

Laura:

Oh, that's true.

Laura:

They

Xhafer:

and they become part of a cadre.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

So

Xhafer:

he might not, he might not know his kids.

Xhafer:

Like legitimately, he might just have never have met his kids.

Xhafer:

That could be a real life.

Xhafer:

I feel like I, now I feel bad.

Laura:

Like,

Xhafer:

Oh, okay.

Xhafer:

I hadn't, I hadn't matched that all in my head together.

Xhafer:

I was just, oh, of course.

Xhafer:

He's a shitty absentee father.

Xhafer:

He is shitty, absentee everything.

Xhafer:

No, he might not actually have a choice about this one thing.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Oh.

Laura:

Reproductive destiny and rights kind of weird.

Xhafer:

anyways he runs off to Mars.

Xhafer:

Captures our hero of the last book.

Xhafer:

Stephen Walters, his namesake and like enters his mind as he dies,

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

And finds out the truth.

Xhafer:

yep, he knows what's going on now.

Xhafer:

He knows who his parents are.

Laura:

Doesn't wanna accept it.

Laura:

Not into it.

Xhafer:

I feel like if he had also gotten who his grandparent

Xhafer:

was, he'd be a lot more.

Xhafer:

Okay.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah, that's true.

Laura:

That that part is not revealed at all.

Laura:

Cuz they, they didn't even know, I think, right?

Xhafer:

I don't, I didn't read that book.

Xhafer:

I don't know.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

No, I think whichever one was his child, I don't think ever knew.

Laura:

So.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Poor, poor, messed up ster.

Laura:

That's all very strange.

Laura:

I do like when we go to Mars that we get like some more detail about Mars and like

Laura:

terraforming it and what the colonies are like and such, cuz that doesn't

Laura:

quite really get fleshed out in the show.

Laura:

You know, we just get some CGI, red planet scenes every now and again and we don't

Laura:

really know like what the deal is, but we kind of find out like Mars is kind

Laura:

of a frontier place and Yeah, there's,

Xhafer:

It's kind of wild westy.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

there's lots of crime cuz you can just like set a ship down

Laura:

anywhere and then you walk into town in a space suit and like, you know,

Laura:

just smuggle things and telepaths can come get work that's not, you know,

Laura:

cyco because we have all these other businessy, businessy air quotes needs.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

So it becomes more of a real place for me than it ever like felt in the show.

Xhafer:

Yep.

Xhafer:

For sure.

Xhafer:

I dug that somewhere in between parts three and four.

Xhafer:

Bester ends up relocating to Mars because of all this and because

Xhafer:

of the events that happen, it gets 'em away from the director.

Xhafer:

It lets 'em kind of build a base of power.

Xhafer:

It's definitely a power play thing.

Laura:

Gets him away from

Laura:

The loveless marriage where she's having an affair.

Xhafer:

yeah.

Laura:

Yeah,

Xhafer:

You know

Laura:

yeah.

Xhafer:

that

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

I mean, when, when their, your whole like destiny is taken out

Laura:

of your hands, like, I don't know.

Xhafer:

yeah.

Laura:

Gotta get some thrills where you can, I guess.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

You know, like bones in Star Trek 2009, the wife got the

Xhafer:

whole planet in the divorce.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

So basically he has just has to run off Tamar's because Yeah.

Xhafer:

It's easier than going to therapy.

Xhafer:

Men will literally run off to Mars and build a new base of power.

Xhafer:

They go to therapy.

Laura:

exactly.

Xhafer:

It's funny every time.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

It's accurate every time.

Laura:

I don't know what to say.

Xhafer:

so uh, in this we do get a little bit of world building about the beta, why

Xhafer:

all these colonies have beta in their name

Laura:

Yeah,

Laura:

I thought that

Xhafer:

and I fucking love it.

Xhafer:

I love this stupid little paragraph, this stupid little paragraph is the best

Xhafer:

paragraph and the whole fucking book.

Laura:

It was also a good joke.

Xhafer:

yeah.

Xhafer:

And it was just like, well, you know, like different historical

Xhafer:

cultures come into waves at different

Xhafer:

times and you know, when this was happening, there was just,

Xhafer:

Greek was popular, you know.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

Ancient Greece.

Xhafer:

And then, then they talk about how a lot of these names came from the

Xhafer:

Sonari and how the Sonari purposefully named stuff like ancient Greece.

Xhafer:

Like they got a history book on ancient Greece and purposefully named a shit

Xhafer:

ton of their stuff on the star charts.

Xhafer:

They gave us that

Xhafer:

because they were still trying to sell the humans or the lost 13th tribe thing,

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

The, the Battlestar Galactico, the 13th tribe, bullshit Earth.

Xhafer:

Earth is the earth is the last tribe.

Xhafer:

And so that's why they're all beta, because sin alpha, centri

Xhafer:

prime is the alpha, and so anything else is going to be a beta colony.

Xhafer:

And so they just named all of these planets, beta this, beta this, beta this

Xhafer:

and Greek, and sold us the star charts.

Xhafer:

And then when we finally got there, that was the name we already had for it.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

It's so good.

Xhafer:

That's like such the stupidest little bullshit detail that makes so much

Xhafer:

fucking sense, and it's the kind of thing that makes me love Babylon five.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

It, it was good.

Laura:

There's some, there's really some good stuff in here that, especially

Laura:

as it starts to get a little more humorous and it starts to become

Laura:

a little more of the bester humor

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

You, you really start to feel best's voice as we know it in the

Laura:

show, I think in part four, right?

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

What else happens?

Xhafer:

Part three, he goes in all those dead bodies,

Laura:

oh.

Laura:

Yes.

Laura:

Yes.

Laura:

He's, he's

Laura:

like

Xhafer:

he becomes obsessed.

Xhafer:

Just like eight Nero scans.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Telepaths do one or two in their lifetime.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

But he's, he's really into these death bed scans since he had his like, encounter

Laura:

with Steven Walters and, and his like hand is paralyzed from his encounter

Laura:

with Steven Walters, even though there's no physiological reason for it.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

Like the, the hand that was firing the gun at him.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

yeah.

Laura:

He's, he's messed up.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

And then we go into ascendants

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

and we get a bit with Lida.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Who decides she's never gonna be a P cop?

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

It is funny that Ster was involved in that because I think she mentions

Laura:

in the show like, I like interned at.

Laura:

You know, being in the law enforcement and it wasn't for me.

Laura:

And now we find out why.

Xhafer:

Lida has not interacted with Bester in the show, has she?

Xhafer:

Not yet.

Laura:

No, I think

Laura:

she does at some point.

Laura:

Right.

Laura:

But it hasn't happened yet.

Xhafer:

she's always off station,

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

Or something.

Laura:

Cuz he'd have to comment on that.

Laura:

Not just because they knew each other, but because now she's

Laura:

like, not working for the course.

Laura:

She's working for the Volans.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

And so she's always doing other stuff.

Xhafer:

She doesn't get involved.

Xhafer:

And he's, she's kind of protected by the VO lines too, because she's

Xhafer:

technically a blip.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

But they can't go after her.

Laura:

The, the whole vo race would be upset.

Laura:

So.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Anyways yeah, so that stuff happens.

Laura:

They're trying to find a

Laura:

serial killer.

Xhafer:

Yeah, they find a serial killer who's killed some

Xhafer:

telepaths, but not all Telepaths.

Xhafer:

And then we get a little like CSI episode with them.

Xhafer:

And then we flash forward a bit more and Brett comes back, fucking Brett

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

to be all like we were supposed to be the ones in P and

Xhafer:

now it's all on You shoots himself.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

He, he goes, he gives 'em all the tinfoil hat stuff

Laura:

like the director's keeping us all down.

Laura:

All the really good telepaths.

Laura:

the mundanes are like,

Xhafer:

All of cadre Prime is dead.

Xhafer:

Not that you give a fuck.

Laura:

yeah, The, the mundanes are trying to keep us down.

Laura:

Things are, things are really bad

Xhafer:

Oh no.

Xhafer:

What if Fester actually just sent his kids to Te Town and dis and just

Xhafer:

disowned them to keep them safe?

Xhafer:

What if he's actually like trying to be a good dad?

Laura:

oh, I don't know, man.

Laura:

It's getting really convoluted and, and you can see it cuz ster

Laura:

talks about like, well, what if, what if this person's in on this?

Laura:

And his paranoia is like, really growing.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

so

Laura:

he could be

Laura:

thinking about that.

Xhafer:

yeah, ster grabs his assistant, Byron

Xhafer:

Cycop training.

Xhafer:

Byron Dun, dun dun.

Laura:

does that.

Laura:

Well, okay, we can just get there when it's in season five.

Laura:

But I was like, wow, okay.

Laura:

I, you know, I don't remember anything about that character

Laura:

because I didn't really watch those episodes, I don't think.

Laura:

But I was like, huh.

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

We'll look forward to it when I get there to see if he mentions

Laura:

like having been a P op.

Xhafer:

Or interacting with ster, maybe.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Does Fester be all like, Hey, why are you still alive?

Xhafer:

If they ever meet,

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Interesting.

Xhafer:

is he even in season five?

Laura:

Pester.

Laura:

He's gotta be, I think he was in every season, like an episode.

Xhafer:

He's in 1, 2, 3, 4 episodes of season five, and he is mentioned

Xhafer:

in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 additional episodes?

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

So he's a thing.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

So yeah, best Byron is like his mentee right now.

Laura:

Right.

Laura:

And uh,

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

he puts him through some tests.

Laura:

Basically.

Laura:

He's got, you know, he's got all of Black Omega squadron that he built on Mars

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

and.

Laura:

He's still hunting down blips, still hunting down rogues uses kind of uh,

Laura:

some rogue hunting missions to get himself positioned where he wants to

Laura:

be to finally confront the director.

Laura:

Director

Laura:

Johnston

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

He gets Director Johnson where he wants him, and he acts as the motherfucker.

Laura:

Yeah, and it's been a long game because we see, you know, we, we learned

Laura:

in maybe part three about Department Sigma, which was doing weird shit on Mars.

Laura:

And definitely encountered the, the shadow ship and stuff.

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

Um, And through his relationship with Department Sigma, I believe he

Laura:

brainwashed and became control over two of Johnston's telepath guards,

Xhafer:

Yep.

Laura:

he sends them a series of, like he says, he calls it a series of glyphs.

Laura:

But I think in the episode where we had control and, and Talia and

Laura:

all that, it was like a code word

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

and uh, suddenly they don't belong to Johnston anymore.

Laura:

And they belong to Besta.

Xhafer:

yep.

Xhafer:

He uses this advan, this advantage to kill the, the director and fake

Xhafer:

out a terrorist attack or something.

Xhafer:

And then just finds out that Byron is like the one guy who

Xhafer:

doesn't know what happened, cuz he can't trust him yet finds out.

Xhafer:

He doesn't really feel like he can trust Byron and attempts to kill Byron.

Xhafer:

He believes Byron is dead

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

at the very least.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

And then heads off to Babylon five.

Xhafer:

And that's the book.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

He, he heads off because there's a, a Jason Ironheart that he's looking for,

Laura:

so, So how did you feel about the book, even if you don't feel

Laura:

any more sympathetic to pester?

Xhafer:

It is.

Xhafer:

All right.

Xhafer:

There are a couple parts that I've found really

Xhafer:

enjoyable.

Xhafer:

A lot of the like early descriptions of how telepathy works when they're kids and

Xhafer:

they're like using, like, they're just trying to like, just get you used to how

Xhafer:

it's going to be described for the rest of the book, I thought was very interesting.

Xhafer:

Like to talk about like the images and the stuff.

Xhafer:

Like it not just being, hearing someone's thoughts in your mind.

Xhafer:

It's, you know, and then like the shaman battle thing that they

Xhafer:

do, they talk about a bunch too.

Xhafer:

Which is in a handful of the things that's like a real world thing.

Xhafer:

You know, I think the best example on film that I can

Xhafer:

recall is in Sandman on Netflix,

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Xhafer:

uh, Where Morpheus does one with Lao Lucifer.

Xhafer:

That was pretty cool.

Xhafer:

So that was cool to see in another place cuz it's another

Xhafer:

thing that I'm familiar with.

Xhafer:

The stuff with Byron was completely outta left field for me.

Xhafer:

I don't remember him having an association with Fester at all.

Xhafer:

But I might just not be remembering that stuff from season five cuz

Laura:

We're gonna be watching extra close now, like

Xhafer:

Yeah, yeah.

Xhafer:

It's coming up on three years since I watched season five.

Xhafer:

So,

Xhafer:

you know, it wasn't like when we started this and it was, oh yeah,

Xhafer:

I finished season one, you know, a couple, you know, like six months ago.

Xhafer:

It's, we're far out now, so I don't have as good memory as I do of these episodes.

Xhafer:

And also, I don't think I've watched half of season five.

Xhafer:

I think I just skipped to the end because we were just starting to record.

Xhafer:

But yeah overall it was okay.

Xhafer:

I mean, I read it.

Xhafer:

It wasn't a book that prov I've, I mean, I've tried to read books that

Xhafer:

have just been so bad that they

Xhafer:

just drag and I can't read them.

Xhafer:

And this was not that book,

Xhafer:

you know, I did, you know, like 150 page session, you know, in like two hours

Xhafer:

one morning, just like going through.

Xhafer:

And I read that whole thing twice.

Xhafer:

I think, you know, it was like I was just powering through,

Xhafer:

so it kept me going.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Laura:

I like, I like getting some background on beter.

Laura:

I like having another dimension to look at him through than just villain lens.

Laura:

And yeah, I agree.

Laura:

Like therapy, man.

Laura:

Like if you just go to therapy, like maybe you don't, don't,

Xhafer:

That would mean trusting someone with my innermost

Laura:

Well, but also I, I have a feeling that like Cyco doesn't

Laura:

want you to go to therapy, right?

Xhafer:

I feel like Cyco has therapists,

Xhafer:

I feel like Cyco has mandated therapy for, because that's how you, that's

Xhafer:

just another way to control people

Laura:

right.

Laura:

They, they've, they're using their therapy in a certain, like, they

Laura:

don't want you to have real therapy.

Laura:

They want you to

Xhafer:

They want you to have church confession in

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Like, so I do, I do feel sorry for

Xhafer:

to be clear to anyone who might have been offended by that, I'm referring

Xhafer:

to a very specific period in time and cultural propagation, not anything else.

Xhafer:

Not not talking about modern confessional, which is a very different beast.

Xhafer:

Just to make sure that's said out loud.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

I, I think that the, in that light, it's like, I don't think Bester

Laura:

could be any different, you know,

Xhafer:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

because even if he had, had tried to like, actually deal with

Laura:

shit, I don't think it would succeed.

Laura:

So, I don't know.

Laura:

I, I enjoyed it.

Laura:

I've liked have putting some more on that character.

Laura:

And then I'm hoping that when we get to the third book, we're gonna get some

Laura:

more like, you know resolution on some things that get left open by the show,

Laura:

because it seems like we're gonna pick up pretty near the end of the show.

Xhafer:

yeah.

Xhafer:

yeah.

Xhafer:

I imagine the next book I, we might actually have to call an audible on it.

Laura:

Oh, okay.

Xhafer:

If we, we, I will check out the first chapter or two

Xhafer:

in the next couple of days.

Xhafer:

We might have to push it back to our after season five book club.

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Like for the content reasons.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Which, We'll figure out what we'll do otherwise, if that ends up being the case,

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Sounds good.

Laura:

Okay.

Laura:

Well, I hope if you've got to read the book that you also enjoyed it, listener,

Laura:

and that you're ready for us to come back in a few weeks

Laura:

with season four episode one.

Xhafer:

Yep.

Xhafer:

Hour of the Wolf Sheridan is missing and presumed dead.

Xhafer:

The Centri continue to ally with the shadows.

Xhafer:

That's our synopsis.

Xhafer:

Not a whole lot, but we'll be talking about it in two weeks.

Xhafer:

But before those two weeks, we gotta thank Jeremy Siegel for our lovely theme music.

Xhafer:

Jeremy, thank you.

Xhafer:

Really appreciate our theme music.

Xhafer:

You can find more at Jeremy's work at Jeremy Siegel 40 two.bandcamp.com, and

Xhafer:

also as nuclear jaguar on the Spotify.

Xhafer:

I listened to your March album Drop.

Xhafer:

It was good.

Xhafer:

I liked February better, but if you fin if set my friend request

Xhafer:

on Facebook, we can talk about it.

Laura:

man.

Laura:

And as we're recording this, we're like halfway through April, so hopefully

Laura:

as this is airing, April is out.

Laura:

So hopefully you can have a listen to that, my friends.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

This should air at the start of May.

Xhafer:

So A, the April album drop should be out when this airs too.

Xhafer:

Go give it a listen.

Xhafer:

It's probably really good.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

And, uh, thank you to Angry Duck Time Machine on Instagram

Laura:

for our podcast artwork.

Xhafer:

Thank you, Aaron for editing this podcast, presumably

Xhafer:

at 2:00 AM while holding a newborn.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Hopefully so.

Laura:

Should Be any day now.

Xhafer:

And uh, thank you listener.

Xhafer:

We really appreciate you.

Xhafer:

We really appreciate the time you choose to spend with us.

Xhafer:

There are many babble on five podcasts and there are even more

Xhafer:

just not babble on five podcasts.

Xhafer:

And the fact that you've chosen to spend an hour listening to Laura

Xhafer:

and I means the world to us truly.

Xhafer:

Um, Throw a review up if you feel like it.

Xhafer:

The five stars we're told by every other podcast ever that it's important

Xhafer:

and so we assume that they are correct rather than actually doing the research.

Laura:

Yeah.

Xhafer:

Uh, You can email us.

Xhafer:

Who are you5@gmail.com.

Xhafer:

Hop on our Discord channel where we will be done bitching about

Xhafer:

Picard Season three by now, because this airs in the start of May.

Xhafer:

But right now the finale is about to drop, so we'll see how it

Laura:

I don't know.

Laura:

It depends on how mad we are, man.

Xhafer:

Might still be going.

Xhafer:

We will see, depends on what this after credit scene that's rumored is.

Laura:

Mm-hmm.

Laura:

Got lots of good speculation out there, so,

Xhafer:

All right.

Xhafer:

Well, we hope you all get to enjoy the next couple of weeks without us, and

Xhafer:

we'll be back on May 24th with season four, episode one of Babylon five.

Xhafer:

Take care, internet.

Laura:

All right.

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About the Podcast

Who Are You?
A Babylon 5 Watchcast
Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.