Episode 145

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Published on:

9th Oct 2024

Crusade 13 - Fine, Here's Babylon 5 (Featuring Ryan from Yum Yum Podcast)

Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers, as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Ryan from Yum Yum Podcast joins Laura and Xhafer on the final episode of their crusade to finish Crusade. Meanwhile, the Excalibur finally visits Babylon 5. Lochley takes Gideon to Arby's in Crusade: Episode 7 - The Rules of the Game.

Transcript
Xhafer:

Hello, and welcome to Who Are You?

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is the Babylon

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Watchcast hosted by two former strangers,

now friends, who've gotten to know

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each other while re watching a favorite

show from their childhood, Babylon 5.

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I'm Ja'far,

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Laura: And I'm Laura.

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Xhafer: today we're joined by,

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Ryan: Ryan,

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Xhafer: hey Ryan, how've you been?

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Ryan: Oh, fantastic.

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I'm so excited to be back here

to help you on your crusade.

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Xhafer: Our Crusade?

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to finish crusade, this is

the last episode for us.

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Laura: crusade, I think.

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Xhafer: well, I mean, it's

finished at the very least.

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So, uh, you messaged me, Ryan.

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You had an idea for a

little cold open fun.

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So do you wanna, you wanna

throw us the pitch here?

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Ryan: I do.

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So Crusade was a short lived series and,

through its run, made direct connections

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to Babylon 5, having some of the previous

characters and cast members and locations.

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in it, whether big or small, and in the

episode today we even had some, whether

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it was Lockley or the Brochiri ambassador,

and I wanted to, know, out of any

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character from Babylon 5, big or small,

major, recurring, or one off, who would

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you have liked to have joined the crew?

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of the Excalibur.

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Who do you think would have

been a great match for Crusade?

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Xhafer: I've got two answers.

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I've got a big answer and a little answer.

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Laura: Hmm.

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Xhafer: the big answer is Jakar.

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Laura: Ah.

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Xhafer: So I think Jakar could have driven

a lot of story because he's back from

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his Outer Rim expedition at this point.

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Per Legend of the Rangers.

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so we've got that kind of thing

going on, so he can be like the

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guy who knows what's going on.

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Kind of like Galen when we don't have

Galen, but not as mystical about it.

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I think Jakar is going to

be a lot more sensitive.

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To other worlds and other cultures

compared to Gideon who kind of just

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tramples over that shit whenever it's

inconvenient for him Repeatedly, so

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I think that would offer a fun and

interesting perspective on the show

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And also if you get your car on the

crew, you've got a chance for some more

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interaction with Londo Having the two of

them together outside of Crusade might

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take some story work to make happen.

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If one of them isn't on the crew, you're

not going to get Londo, he's the Emperor.

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And so when they go to a Centauri

world, Londo can be there and we

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can get some more banter with them.

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And also, get a real interesting

perspective on Londo through

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Jakar at his darkest stage of

his life as he ends the series.

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That's my big

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Laura: really neat.

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Xhafer: My little answer, my more

auxiliary character that I think

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would be really interesting is Talia.

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So we are,

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Ryan: version of

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Xhafer: well that's the thing

is we're post Psycor now because

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the Telepath Wars happened.

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so, what version of Talia

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And what's she doing?

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I see her kind of installed as Matheson.

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Or, maybe not a military person,

but there is a representative of the

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Bureau of Telepath Investigations,

I think they called it.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Something

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Xhafer: Um, mostly I think that

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there is a cool story somewhere in

there, and I want to, I want to hear it.

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I don't know what I'd do with it

exactly, but I think it'd be interesting.

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Ryan: I'd like her to be

gal pals with Doreena.

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Just some gals being pals maybe

be roommates for an episode.

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You know, let them bond, but not too much.

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It's the 90s after all.

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Laura: Yeah.

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No, I think they could

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spar.

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Ryan: Oh yeah, yeah.

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Who has the huskier voice

out of the two of them?

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Let them go.

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Let them husk their

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voices.

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Laura: also had kind of one big answer.

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And it does require a little

reworking of Babylon 5 and something

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that I think we all kind of didn't

like about Babylon 5 right at the

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end.

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Not Byron.

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Ryan: Linear.

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Linear.

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Laura: Lanier.

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Yeah, I would much rather Lanier be

doing this than whatever he's doing.

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He could bring that like sensitivity

that again uh, Gideon lacks when

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interacting with other alien cultures.

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He's much more curious

about how others behave.

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And really kind about it,

and it'd just be so much more

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interesting than what they did to

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him at the end of Babylon 5.

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Xhafer: that's a good answer.

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Ryan: Linear and uh, Max can

bond over being perverts.

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That'd be

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nice.

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Um,

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being creeps?

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Lovely.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Laura: other idea I'd had was Jakar,

but I was thinking about also, you

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know, he spent that time with Leta

out there and Leta's gone now, right?

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She's,

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Xhafer: think she's

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dead?

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Laura: yeah, she died in the telepath war

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at this

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point, I think.

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Ryan: Yeah, if Patricia Tolman

actually uh, bothered to show up in

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Crusade, she would have died in that

flashback episode that they had.

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She would have been the one

that Matheson was talking to.

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That was the original idea.

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And Pat Tolman said no.

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And you'll often note many times

there are scripts where Pat Tolman

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as leader would have appeared to die

and she just mysteriously was like,

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I'm not available for that one, Joe.

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Uh, Legend of the Rangers, Lost Tales

Crusade just happened all three times

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to be like not available for that Joe.

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Sorry.

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Can't can't make it

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What's I always wants to kill Lita.

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He always wants to kill Lita off road home

gave him that opportunity and he took it

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Well, like Jakar could have some like

guilt feelings over that or something,

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you know, dealing with Matheson

and with his like telepath stuff.

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And we could have some actually

like deep plots in this show.

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We've tried a few times and I

think we've done a very bad job.

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Ryan: Yes, I have one answer It's the

only answer and I've thought about

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it for years and I think it would

tie in beautifully with the themes of

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the show I think the character would

gel really well with a lot of the

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cast members, specifically Galen, and

they're a character from Babylon 5 that

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disappeared without any real circumstance

behind it, which is Brother Theo.

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Xhafer: Ooh.

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Ryan: love Brother Theo to be a member of

the crew, because he is someone that was

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wanting to travel out and meet different

cultures and understand their religions.

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He's respectful, but

also he's an arsehole.

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Like, he's, he's a, he's,

you know, he's a snarky guy.

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He's an older guy.

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Him and Galen could have some great

back and forths because they're

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very diametrically opposed, and

yet they're also so, so similar.

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And I think this series truly lacks, from

my recollection, because it's been a while

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since I've fully watched it, It lacks

any character that actually is religious.

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All of the characters in Crusade are

agnostic at best, or atheist at most, and

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in this episode we're going to talk about.

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Pretty much any discussion about

culture and religion is met with all

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the characters rolling their eyes, and I

really wish that What we had in Babylon

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5 where we had many different factors

of belief whether it was Dylan who was

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respectful Or you had a Vonnevar who was

spiritual in her own way, but she wasn't a

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true believer But she also was or you had

Franklin who was a man of science and a

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man of faith and this series lacks Really

any of that like oddly enough Max Eilerson

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is the closest you get to a religious

character with his background But he's

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not a believer He's not a believer

anymore, but he was at some point.

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And I think Brother Theo would have been

a perfect fit, and I would have loved

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to have seen him grapple with faith

being challenged, because in Babylon

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5, we never got to see that from him.

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We never got to see that.

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He was just, true in his beliefs.

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Most we got was with Brother Edward,

but imagine if he got to see all

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of these different cultures die

and there's not much left of them.

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I would love to have seen him

share some barbs with, with

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Gideon and with, you know, Max.

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That would be fun.

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Laura: Yeah,

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And the, the monastery that they had

or the, the, I don't, I don't know my

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religious terms, but the group that

was on Babylon five was like there

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to do, they were science, serious

scientists and researchers and all that.

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And you could have them as like

members of the crew or there are

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support groups somewhere that brother

Theo gets communications back on, Oh,

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maybe we should try blah, blah, blah.

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Like.

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Yeah, he could have

replaced the apocalypse

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box.

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Xhafer: Eh heh heh.

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Ryan: Never, never replace that.

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It's one of my favorite things of Crusade.

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It's one of my unironically favorite.

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I love the, I love the apocalypse box.

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Laura: I was so mad it wasn't the

apocalypse box that told us about the

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Lorkans, or at least we weren't told that,

but it could have been the box, right?

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Xhafer: maybe it was.

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Maybe everything was

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the box, Laura.

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Laura: yeah.

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maybe it was

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Xhafer: Nah, Brother Theo, great call.

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Um, I mean, reaching to that same

area with Jakar, that missing

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spirituality, I think it's interesting

that we all call that as the

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biggest problem with this show.

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Um,

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Ryan: Why is it that, why isn't it there?

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Because the series is specifically

dealing with religious, religious

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elements throughout it all.

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And we don't really have

anyone who's religious.

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I mean, Galen, kind of,

but even then, not really.

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Like, why isn't it here?

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It's so weird that it's,

like, none of them are.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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it's bizarre.

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It's a big gap.

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And it's clearly glaring for all of us to

come to the same conclusion independently.

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Laura: Yeah.

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I wonder what JMS was going through at

this point in his life given up on that

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Xhafer: We can just blame TNT.

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That seems to be the thing to do.

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Laura: And he's like no religion

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none

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Xhafer: mm, cut it out.

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Alright, well, thank you

for that prompt, Ryan.

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That was, that was fun.

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We should get into our episode here.

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Uh, We've got Rules of the Game, our

final episode of our Crusade coverage.

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Laura: have a question

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Ryan did you pick this

episode on your own that

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you wanted this one, okay I wasn't

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sure.

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Ryan: I, I wanted this one,

for a couple of reasons, we'll,

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we'll pick apart as we go along.

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There was a couple of others I would

have loved to have done, like, The

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Needs of Earth, I think, is a genuinely

great episode, and I listened to

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your discussion on it, and you guys

didn't like it as much as I did,

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and I would love to debate you about

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that.

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Um, but I like this episode a lot

too, and it has uh, some, some

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interesting facets, and some, you

know, pros and cons, You know, for

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Crusade, for me, like, if there's an

episode that I can at least chew on

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a bit, that means something, because

there's many, most don't have that.

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That or any of the Fiona Avery episodes,

I would have loved to have discussed

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as well, but I chose what I chose.

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Laura: Yeah.

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I was curious also, Jaffer, you told me

last time this is like tied for one of

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the lowest rated episodes of Crusade?

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Xhafer: When I was looking at, so it

was tied not on IMDb, IMDb listed as

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one of the best episodes of Crusade?

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actually.

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But the um, the movie TV scraping service

that I use for metadata on my home media

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server, their rating of it was the worst.

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Laura: Really?

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Xhafer: and I can't

explain that discrepancy.

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Um, I don't know where these ratings come

from except users and why it would be

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one on one and different on the other.

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Besides, I'm guessing a low sample

size makes it easier to impact.

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It's hard to say.

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I mean, that said, they were within a

full point out of ten within each other.

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Cause I think it was a 5 4 on mine

and a like 6 4, maybe a 6 6 on

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IMDB, if memory serves, without

having it open in front of me.

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So it's not like there's

a big window here.

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Generally, Crusade episodes are rated

higher where I'm getting my stuff from.

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They're almost all 7s.

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So I'm guessing it's

small sample size there.

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Someone really likes the

show and just put it all 10s.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Xhafer: lumped into a Babylon 5

collection and someone just rated

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it 5 stars and called it good.

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Yeah.

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Ryan: that's who it was

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Xhafer: user jms4eva.

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Laura: Yeah,

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no, I did not think this was the

worst, so I was very confused.

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Xhafer: this was, this is a

much better episode than the

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last one we watched for sure.

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And I think also, empirically, the one

I've taken the most amount of notes

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on from a number of pages standpoint,

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Laura: Wow.

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Xhafer: hit four pages

of notes on this one.

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I think I've been averaging two

on an episode of Crusade and

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five for an episode of Babylon 5.

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So, yeah.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Okay, we better get into it

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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so we open uh, Dr.

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Chambers and Max walking around

Babylon 5 casually dropping.

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It's been open for a decade now.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Xhafer: they discuss how some things

should be left in the past when they

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run into Max's ex wife, Cynthia.

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There's a couple things

here that I really like.

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Um, It's almost like JMS is doing

this scene at the audience, to me.

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it's, like, some things are

better left in the past, guys.

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I know I can't do a Babylon 5 spinoff

without going to Babylon 5, but please

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don't make me do more Babylon 5.

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Is really the vibe that I get from this.

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Ryan: It's also to TNT.

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Hey,

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TNT, it's dead.

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We can move on.

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Like, I, I like Babylon 5

too, but it's, it's You know,

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things need to go to bed now.

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Chasey Scoggins doesn't need

to be in the opening credits.

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It's okay.

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We can, we can survive.

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But uh, poor JMS.

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He won't ever have this.

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sentiment again while writing

in The Babylon 5 universe.

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No, we must always have

V5 from this point on.

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Laura: the set is so great.

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Like the set is just so much

more interesting to me than

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the Excalibur has been so far.

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Mm

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Xhafer: Yeah, it's, I mean, they're very

close to the original Babylon 5 hallways.

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They're better lit.

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Yeah.

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was my only note of the difference.

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The Zocalo looks pretty close

when they're walking around.

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They get on the bridge to

share it in speech and stuff.

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Like, the sets they do

a really good job with.

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There's only a couple that feel kind of

weirdly out of place, not Babylon 5 y.

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but for the most part, everything

felt like the station, which I really

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Ryan: Oh, yeah.

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The director for this episode, if I'm

remembering correctly, was Jesus Trevino,

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who was a mainstay on B5, and, you know,

he knows how to shoot these sets uh, he

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knows this environment well, and so it

definitely did have like a, oh, we're

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back home, oh, we're back, we're back

to where we want to be, and then there's

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no Excalibur in this episode, right?

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We never cut, we're never inside

of Excalibur in this episode,

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Xhafer: I don't think,

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Laura: I think you're

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Xhafer: don't remember anything.

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If it is, it's so quick

that it doesn't matter.

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Laura: Yeah, we see it outside

the station a couple of times, I

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think, but I don't think we ever

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go.

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No, we're in Max's

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office at the very end,

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Ryan: At the very

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end, okay.

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I take it

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back.

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Laura: but it's not like

the bridge or anything.

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Ryan: no.

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Xhafer: Enough where you

can tell the difference.

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Which I appreciate.

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Gideon argues with the Berkiri

ambassador, and honestly, like,

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I'm siding with the Berkiri here?

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Uh, Gideon's just being an asshole.

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It's just like, oh, well, we signed these

treaties, so we're going to the world.

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It's not like, This isn't a Berkiri

world, you didn't sign a treaty, bro.

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Like, you have to just talk

we're not even saying no.

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We're saying you just have to talk

to these aliens and get the approval

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from them to go to their world.

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And he's being super unreasonable

about it, in my opinion.

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Yeah.

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Ryan: I I got it.

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I understood his frustration.

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Like, that's the thing.

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It's from a source of, you can trace

where he's coming from, but he's he's

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very angered by the bureaucracy of it all.

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So, like, he, like, on paper, this world

is in the Bakiri's rule, but Gideon

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doesn't understand, like, commonwealth.

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And, you know, provinces and stuff,

like, what he understands is, like,

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You guys rule this place, so you

can let me in, we are an alliance.

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These guys are in the

alliance, why can't I come in?

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And it's like, oh, cultural values?

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Oh god, that again?

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We've seen Gideon throughout the series.

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Struggle with people's cultural values

getting in the way of the mission.

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Which is like an interesting

recurring trait to have.

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Especially when you contrast

it to, say, Sinclair.

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Who was all about like, let's embrace all

of the people's different cultural stuff.

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Like, that's the glue that

holds us all together.

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While Gideon sees it, as

something that's slowing down

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the job to save the human race.

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And the Procury guy just looks

him in the eyes and said,

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Well, humanity will die then.

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Oh well, bye.

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Bye bye.

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Xhafer: You're not even the first

race we've seen wiped out from

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a plague in the last five years.

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Like, get over yourself.

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Mm hmm.

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Ryan: And again, great return of

that actor who always played the

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Brachyre ambassador in Babylon 5.

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He was great to see him again.

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I popped, I was like, oh this little

weasel, great to see him again.

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Laura: Yeah,

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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there's a lot of good, good stuff from the

bit part players in this episode, I think.

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Xhafer: We go to our terrible,

terrible theme for the last time.

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Thank fuck.

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I'm so glad I don't have

to listen to this anymore.

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Uh, Eh,

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Ryan: I've, I've softened on

Evan Chen's music quite a lot.

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I think from Cold, Cold Arms is the

most outrageous his music ever was.

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And in Crusade it's like, He took a

Xanax, and it was like really low in

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comparison, and that's what I hate

about the opening theme, is when people

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say Evan Chen's music is aggressive,

or over the top, or intrusive, I think

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Cold Arms is where that really comes in,

but you listen to the opening credits

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of this, this show, and it's so sleepy.

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It's just so non existent and

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Xhafer: That's my

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Ryan: I actually enjoy

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Evan Chen's music in this episode,

but the opening credits music, I'm

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just like, what's, what's the mood?

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What am I supposed to get from this?

400

:

At least with Cold Arms, I'm like, Yeah,

401

:

there's rhythmic drumming.

402

:

I got something to, like, react to.

403

:

The opening credits You're not reacting

other than to, you know, the voiceover,

404

:

which is doing all the legwork.

405

:

Laura: yeah, it's a lot of

work to and I don't think it

406

:

can carry above the sleepiness

407

:

like Gary Cole's doing his

408

:

best But

409

:

hmm.

410

:

Ryan: Gary Cole and, um, Woodward.

411

:

Peter Woodward.

412

:

But none of them are

all alone in the night.

413

:

205, 000 tons of spinning

metal all alone in the night.

414

:

Oh, Michael O'Hare, we

miss your voiceover, sir.

415

:

When you told us it was a

dangerous place, I believed you.

416

:

But in this one, it's

like, I'm Matthew Gideon.

417

:

You sure are, Gary.

418

:

Xhafer: heh.

419

:

After Thiem luckily has hashed out

some of this for Gideon, they agree

420

:

to have dinner since all of their

other plans kind of have to wait now.

421

:

Cynthia needs money for Max.

422

:

Presumably a lot of money?

423

:

I don't know the exchange rate on 2267

credits to USD, but it seems like,

424

:

it seems like a lot of money to me.

425

:

By the way, everyone's kind of

balking when they say the amount.

426

:

Laura: Yeah, this isn't a

hundred thousand pesos We're

427

:

looking for like this is

428

:

something

429

:

Ryan: Credits has always been a weird

thing to pin down how much it is.

430

:

Like, 50 credits a week was

treated as, like, an extravagance

431

:

of, like, Oh, they're paying you

50 extra credits to be a Nazi?

432

:

Oh, that's, that, wow!

433

:

But then, also Sheridan.

434

:

They want me to pay 30 extra

credits for my, for my quarters?

435

:

Screw the establishment, that's too much!

436

:

We don't know how much

credits have ever been.

437

:

We've never understood.

438

:

Like, I think in season one, Jakar

had to pay like 50, 000 credits to

439

:

Londo within 24 hours and he was

like, I can't get that kind of money.

440

:

Oh my god, that's a lot of money.

441

:

So it's always been whatever.

442

:

I'm sure JMS has said on a forum

somewhere, but like within this

443

:

within all of the series, we've

never known if credits, how much

444

:

a credit is to our real world

445

:

Xhafer: I

446

:

mean, it works like hyperspace.

447

:

It's dictated by the needs of

the plot much more than any

448

:

actual mathematical standard.

449

:

Laura: right and with this we drive

at home that a hundred thousand

450

:

credits is a lot because Cynthia

took out A 50, 000 credit loan from

451

:

this loan shark, and it was a hundred

percent interest in six months.

452

:

So it's given us like, you know,

this, this atrocious user as interest.

453

:

And also we kind of have time.

454

:

Okay.

455

:

She's, she's had six months if

she owes the hundred thousand.

456

:

So she got this loan because her business

went belly up because of the plague.

457

:

So we've got a kind of a

point in time reference.

458

:

It's been at least six

months since earth got

459

:

plagued.

460

:

Ryan: I loved that.

461

:

I loved her going into all of the

reasonings for why her livelihood has

462

:

been impacted, and the top down scale of

how the plague impacts someone like her,

463

:

and now imagine how that is going around

for so many other people, because that's

464

:

always been one of my biggest critiques

of Crusade is We really don't have a

465

:

frame of reference for how impactful

this plague is because we are on the

466

:

outside of it and none of the characters

really have, other than Sarah Chambers,

467

:

like anyone back home that they're

really struggling and worrying about.

468

:

And so I like this, this like,

typical Babylon 5 JMS hyper specific

469

:

detailing of like, oh, this is how.

470

:

A person would get impacted by the plague

even though they're not on earth And

471

:

that's, that's interesting, like, this

is the stuff I love about JMS's writing.

472

:

Xhafer: For sure.

473

:

Laura: I think crusade is also going

to suffer a little bit now from

474

:

being watched in the now times by

us, because we've now seen all of the

475

:

economic effects of a worldwide plague.

476

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

477

:

Laura: And uh, we all have

a very vivid picture of it.

478

:

And this was actually a really good, it's

like, yeah, that's exactly how that works.

479

:

That's like why the United States

did a bunch of, you know, paid

480

:

payroll protection loans and stuff

481

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

482

:

Laura: It all makes sense.

483

:

Xhafer: Yeah, very uh,

very prophetic again.

484

:

Good job, I guess, JMS.

485

:

Laura: Yeah.

486

:

Xhafer: A little too

prophetic most of the time.

487

:

Max agrees to pay the principal out

of principle, but not the interest.

488

:

I'm so proud of that.

489

:

Gideon is still indignant about not

respecting other worlds sovereignty.

490

:

Rich coming from an American, I know.

491

:

Backdoor talk on the second date.

492

:

Seems a bit forward though, Gideon.

493

:

Didn't appreciate the tone he took there.

494

:

Laura: I'm also really disappointed

that their date is not in fresh air.

495

:

Anybody else?

496

:

Xhafer: They couldn't get that set.

497

:

It was hallways or fresh air, Laura.

498

:

Take your pick.

499

:

Right.

500

:

Laura: I'm

501

:

Ryan: have been a maitre d trying to offer

them a coffee with a little something

502

:

special in it, if you know what I mean.

503

:

You know, a little, a little something

uh, the special coffee for sir.

504

:

I, look, Lockley has never once in a day

in her life gone into a fancy restaurant.

505

:

that woman's never eaten at a fancy

restaurant in her fucking life.

506

:

You're kidding yourself if

she's ever gone to fresh air.

507

:

She's eating in the mess hall, she's

grabbing, she's grabbing the whole

508

:

jar of sugar and taking it with her.

509

:

She's, she's not allowed to

do that out of the fresh air.

510

:

They're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

you're a captain and all, but you

511

:

can't just walk into the kitchen

and take all of our pancakes.

512

:

And she, she can, in the mess hall,

because who's gonna, who's gonna stop her?

513

:

Corwin?

514

:

Xhafer: No,

515

:

if Lockley, as a character, were

transplanted to Earth modern day,

516

:

she would live inside a Denny's.

517

:

Ryan: Yeah, no, I, I actually liked their

banter back and forth in this scene.

518

:

I didn't mind the forwardness

because, um, from what I recall

519

:

from their previous interactions,

they've, they've been forward.

520

:

As, as a dynamic.

521

:

They've been very, you know, proactive

in that way, like, never eat anything

522

:

bigger than your head, you know, the

burger thing from one of the previous

523

:

episodes that he talked to her about, and

I, I like their, I like their dynamic.

524

:

They're both, like, we'll talk about it.

525

:

more as the episode goes on, but they're

both, like, ultra professional freaks.

526

:

Who, who understand one another.

527

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

528

:

Laura: I just want better

for my girl Lockley.

529

:

He's so mansplaining in

530

:

here and I'm just like,

531

:

girl,

532

:

Ryan: She has an insane, she has an

insane line later that I can't wait

533

:

to discuss.

534

:

Laura: But hey, speaking of sets that

we got back Eilerson goes to look for

535

:

the Lone Shark goon in the Dark Star.

536

:

Xhafer: Babylon 5's premiere

goth industrial club.

537

:

Great to see that back.

538

:

Glad they kept the signs.

539

:

I wonder whose basement those

were in for three years.

540

:

Laura: Joe's.

541

:

Ryan: Douglas Netters.

542

:

Um, I like the music in this scene.

543

:

I thought Evan Chen did a really

good like, sleazy, strip joint

544

:

kind of dancey, erotic feel here.

545

:

I actually liked it.

546

:

I thought it matched the mood very well.

547

:

Laura: Yeah, I actually didn't

notice it, which means it wasn't

548

:

intrusive, so he must have done well.

549

:

Xhafer: Max is here to talk to the

debtor to clear Cynthia's debt, but

550

:

it doesn't go according to his plan.

551

:

He's hoping he can just throw 50,

000 at this guy and get him to fuck

552

:

off, and that is not what happens.

553

:

There's lots of

554

:

Ryan: Please, please,

please name the debtor.

555

:

Come on, do you

556

:

Xhafer: I did not write his name down.

557

:

Elfmula.

558

:

Ryan: loves gangsters with the weirdest

names ever, you know, Trace, you remember

559

:

Trace the gangster from season 5?

560

:

Or, you know, what was it uh, uh, jinx?

561

:

No, no, um, Deuce, you remember Deuce?

562

:

Played by William Sanderson?

563

:

Like, these gangsters always

have these freaky names.

564

:

Oh, and Rolf Mueller, watch out

everyone, it's Rolf Mueller.

565

:

Laura: Yes.

566

:

So intimidated.

567

:

Xhafer: after this, the Larkins meet

with Lachlene Gideon and a real preachy.

568

:

We get the gist.

569

:

Basically, their xenophobic

religion makes it a no go for the

570

:

Excalibur to roll up on the planet.

571

:

Laura: I love these guys.

572

:

They are so extra.

573

:

Everything they say is just

this great, take on the line.

574

:

And every time they say

something about the Most Holy,

575

:

they like, vogue a little bit.

576

:

I love it.

577

:

Xhafer: It's a lot of fun.

578

:

These two, these two fuckin weirdos.

579

:

I love these

580

:

Laura: Yeah.

581

:

So

582

:

Ryan: You noted down, you noted

down who one of them was played by?

583

:

Laura: I did not.

584

:

You're gonna tell me

585

:

Xhafer: I've

586

:

Ryan: Tim Choate, a.

587

:

k.

588

:

a.

589

:

Xhafer: Oh, you

590

:

Ryan: was the aide, was the attache, was

591

:

the, like, little slimy one that

was like, Why are we doing this?

592

:

It's like, Because this is what we do!

593

:

So that was Tim Choate, coming

back to Babylon 5 in ano oh,

594

:

the universe in another role.

595

:

Isn't that

596

:

Xhafer: fun.

597

:

Now that you say that, I remember

his name in the credits, in the

598

:

beginning, and going, Oh, Tim Schoat!

599

:

Yay!

600

:

And then completely forgetting

he's in this 30 seconds later.

601

:

Ryan: hmm.

602

:

Laura: That just explains

why I love them so

603

:

much.

604

:

Ryan: Yeah,

605

:

I found their whole

concept interesting though.

606

:

I found it like an interesting thing and

it's a recurring thing in Crusade that we

607

:

keep every now and then bumping into these

isolationists xenophobic races that are

608

:

all about looking after themselves and how

that ties back into the moral quandary of

609

:

Excalibur's mission and like the balancing

act that Gideon has to ride in which we've

610

:

seen him many many times over have to

Wonder if he is becoming the things that

611

:

he's encountering, like, Oh, I'm looking

out for the, you know, the needs of Earth.

612

:

I'm looking out for us, and I'm willing

to break any rules to do so and yet

613

:

I will balk at societies that are

myself to the extreme in a lot of ways.

614

:

And these ones are using religious stuff,

but they are also, like, People who went

615

:

to an alien planet that wasn't theirs.

616

:

found all of this technology and

civilization that has long gone and

617

:

been dead, just like how the Excalibur

is going to go through and grave rob,

618

:

and decided that this is, this is us.

619

:

We are worthy of this.

620

:

We deserve this.

621

:

And I think it's like an interesting kind

of heightening of what the entire premise

622

:

is dealing with, with, with Crusade.

623

:

Because the thing about Crusade is,

yeah, we're watching people try and

624

:

solve a plague, but also how much.

625

:

of it is them just grave robbing.

626

:

Or, you know, barging into

cultures and just taking what

627

:

they need and running off.

628

:

And that's, that's like one of the

brilliant things about this series

629

:

that JMS did have his finger on

the pulse on, but I just wish we

630

:

had more of it for the time being.

631

:

But I, I like how it's used

here, and I have a fun fact.

632

:

So, JMS loves this idea about this

race coming in and advancing themselves

633

:

via the stolen technology, because

that was going to be the reveal.

634

:

Of what the bad guys were

in Legend of the Rangers.

635

:

The, the, what were they?

636

:

The Hand, or whatever.

637

:

And if that series went to air, that

was gonna be the big twist was they're

638

:

not actually an ancient alien race.

639

:

They're just some assholes who found

ancient technology and pretended

640

:

that they're ancient and alien.

641

:

And he likes that idea.

642

:

He likes this Scooby Doo idea.

643

:

Mm

644

:

Laura: Yeah.

645

:

Xhafer: Rip the mask off.

646

:

Yeah no, I, I do really like these aliens.

647

:

I like the culture.

648

:

I like the setup.

649

:

Um, I don't like the twist

with them at the end.

650

:

We'll, we'll get to that when we get

there, but I think that was a big letdown.

651

:

Um, all right.

652

:

So after this Cynthia's

cat gets grabbed under

653

:

Laura: Yeah.

654

:

Poor Mr.

655

:

Kitty.

656

:

Xhafer: Mr.

657

:

Kitten is something a

sociopath would name their cat.

658

:

Laura: I'm pretty sure, based

on the dedication at the end,

659

:

that JMS named his cat Mr.

660

:

Kitty.

661

:

Xhafer: Yeah, it's a, that's

an absurd name for a cat.

662

:

Mr.

663

:

Kitten.

664

:

Ryan: Got a

665

:

whole chapter in his

autobiography, that cat,

666

:

I'm pretty

667

:

Xhafer: I need to read it still, but

668

:

Ryan: We don't have time, well,

we'll talk about it as we go on, but,

669

:

the whole history of JMS and

that cat is actually one of

670

:

the most heartfelt parts of his

autobiography, and tragic, so, oh boy.

671

:

Xhafer: Ugh,

672

:

Laura: Oh.

673

:

man.

674

:

I,

675

:

I hope that the picture at the end of Mr.

676

:

Kitty was really

677

:

Mr.

678

:

Kitty, right?

679

:

Ryan: I'm pretty sure it was, yeah.

680

:

Laura: Yeah.

681

:

What a great cat.

682

:

Xhafer: Lockley tells Gideon that Sheridan

is getting involved here to help with

683

:

the Lorkans, but it's going to take a

little bit of time, so the Excalibur

684

:

is going to be at port for a few days.

685

:

Gideon tries to get Lockley out to

dinner, but it turns into an argument

686

:

about being amongst the common folk.

687

:

Laura: This is where I was pretty mad.

688

:

This was the mansplaining, like,

oh, this is how you should be,

689

:

let's go do this thing, and then

she does, like, hand him his ass

690

:

Xhafer: Yeah, well I think the

691

:

Laura: fuck off, stop telling me

how and who to be, you fuckin idiot.

692

:

Xhafer: the only reason she allows this

to happen is because she knows she's

693

:

gonna hand him his ass immediately.

694

:

Laura: Yeah.

695

:

Xhafer: I think Lockley would have

shut this down very quickly otherwise.

696

:

But like, third space

697

:

has

698

:

happened at this point, right?

699

:

Ryan: yeah, and River of Souls and

stuff, like, yeah, we've had all

700

:

Xhafer: So, so we've had

hollow brothel Lockley.

701

:

On the station at this point.

702

:

Laura: Mm.

703

:

Xhafer: it's just like, wouldn't

that alone negate I mean, Gideon

704

:

wouldn't know about that, but I feel

like that alone negates his point.

705

:

Let alone it actually not being true, and

luckily just being correct and the best.

706

:

Ryan: But that's why it works for us as an

audience if we are followers of Babylon 5.

707

:

We know Lockley we know that she

would be recognised, that she is

708

:

someone who goes out of her way to

mingle with the populace of Babylon 5.

709

:

She's very hands on.

710

:

I actually did like the back and forth.

711

:

Conversation though about how they're

both people of military power and yet

712

:

they think oh no We're just you know,

we're just you know, normal people we

713

:

can just you know, people will recognize

it won't be it'll be fine You know

714

:

in this whole discussion about like

do you understand the common folk?

715

:

You're out there in your spaceship flying

around and then he's like, well do you

716

:

understand the common folk because you're

in this isolated bubble where you get

717

:

to see the the quote unquote best of the

best of these alien representatives as you

718

:

talk to their ambassadors, but I actually

go to their planets and I see the dark

719

:

underbellies, I see the societal problems

and I like at the end of this episode, we

720

:

kind of get the like a middle ground of

like how both of them experience the best.

721

:

and worst parts of other societies,

but still don't really understand them.

722

:

Xhafer: Mm

723

:

hmm.

724

:

Laura: Ultimately, they're going

down to, like, down below, right?

725

:

That's what it looked

like we were trying to do.

726

:

Gonna do some plainclothes stuff while the

Lorkhans keep following them with their

727

:

spy cam, because apparently security has

not gotten any better, thanks a lot, Zack

728

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

729

:

They need to protect their

sanctity from colonialism, so

730

:

they're gonna kill these fucks.

731

:

Like, like, that will stop

anything, but here we are.

732

:

Chambers goes to Cynthia to hang out

and get some dirt on Max, which is fun.

733

:

As Max preps his Nerf brand disc launcher.

734

:

Lockly runs Gideon to her usual Sandow

spot for an easy hundred credits.

735

:

Just making Gideon look so dumb.

736

:

Laura: Yeah.

737

:

She's, she's got that need for the

Arby's again, anyway, you know?

738

:

Xhafer: we go back to that

drossy roast beef vendor.

739

:

Laura: Uh

740

:

Ryan: Yeah, we actually get to see it,

we actually get to see it, like where she

741

:

goes and again, beautiful payoff to What

we have talked about many times over,

742

:

especially on the discord, of just this

weird running Joke, that Lockley eats

743

:

the most fucking disgusting, absurd food

ever, like in her first episode, she's

744

:

all, I'm business, I'm professional,

I'm better than Ivanova, I'm here to

745

:

run the station, I'm a normal person,

cut to her, in the first episode, cut

746

:

to her eating spicy ribs while chugging

milk and doing paperwork out in the

747

:

open, that's like in the first episode.

748

:

To then eventually the show's like, Oh,

you love eating big, sloppy alien burgers.

749

:

And she's like, Yeah.

750

:

I do, baby.

751

:

I love eating big, sloppy alien burgers.

752

:

I'm, I'm a, I'm a person of the people.

753

:

I love just eating garbage.

754

:

I, I wish she had her, her crazy

straw in this one too, where she

755

:

had like a big Coke or whatever.

756

:

I love that they get Tracy Scoggins,

who's, you know, really, like, attractive

757

:

and she was a bodybuilder and all of this

stuff, like, she was real fit, workness,

758

:

you know, fitness exercise freak.

759

:

And her character is like, she will

just pour tons of sugar on everything.

760

:

She's just gonna eat the most

foul looking things in the show

761

:

and we'll rarely comment on it.

762

:

Like, if you go back to season five

of B5, Pretty much most episodes with

763

:

her will have some weird detail of

her eating something just bizarre.

764

:

And I love it.

765

:

And I love that Crusade embraced it.

766

:

They're like, no, we love this about

Lockley, that she's all business,

767

:

but she's a, she's a weird person.

768

:

Xhafer: I know we love Lise,

but we also love Lockley.

769

:

Laura: Yeah.

770

:

Xhafer: percent.

771

:

Yep, for sure.

772

:

What a queen.

773

:

She just fucking destroys Gideon

in this scene, and I'm here

774

:

for every fucking second of it.

775

:

Laura: Me too.

776

:

I do enjoy that.

777

:

Xhafer: Max hires some drossy while

Lockley takes Gideon to her private place.

778

:

Is it just me, or is this where the

assassin was hiding in the pilot?

779

:

Laura: Mm.

780

:

Xhafer: got the, like, weird blind

thing that we saw in that weird hallway

781

:

when he was trying to kill Sinclair.

782

:

We've got the, like, pedestal thing.

783

:

Like, I think this is, I don't

know if it's meant to be this

784

:

exact spot, but it feels a lot

like that scene in the pilot to me.

785

:

Laura: what a nice

786

:

symmetry.

787

:

Ryan: They had industrial fans,

so they brought those back.

788

:

This is my favorite scene in the episode.

789

:

I really like this scene.

790

:

I'm a big fan of when JMS

writes romantic scenes, I guess.

791

:

scenes.

792

:

I think he has a, a real understanding

of mature adult relationships,

793

:

warts and all, wrinkles and

all, just little eccentricities.

794

:

I, I think when he stops and takes a

moment to let just characters, reflect on

795

:

things and be quiet because this episode

is a lot of running around a lot of quips

796

:

a lot of jokes a lot of action a lot of

This and this scene will get interrupted

797

:

by a bunch of bullshit um I like when it's

just them sitting there quietly getting

798

:

to know each other and she's eating a

burger and you get This whole sentiment

799

:

about how they're people who just have to

come up with excuses to do stuff because

800

:

they can't be alone in their thoughts.

801

:

And I like that it beautifully

captures why Gideon and Lockley

802

:

would work as a couple and also not.

803

:

And I like her whole sentiment

of just, that they get to be co

804

:

conspirators for a little while

and Let's just enjoy this moment.

805

:

These are the things I wish Crusade

had more of, which is just characters

806

:

stopping the plot and just having

these moments of connection.

807

:

Xhafer: Like, everything is terrible.

808

:

Like, the human race is on the

verge of extinction, like, Earth is

809

:

effectively going to be a wasteland,

everything is in the fucking shitter.

810

:

And the fact that no one stops to

talk about what that means to them in

811

:

13 episodes, it's, you're right, it's

this kind of stopping moment that

812

:

we need a lot more of in this show.

813

:

Laura: Yeah.

814

:

I mean, this is traumatic.

815

:

Even if you are not a human

on earth, this is trauma.

816

:

It is insane that Excalibur does

not have like a ship's counselor.

817

:

Like why do we not have a Deanna

Troy talking to people every now and

818

:

again about what, what this thing

819

:

is,

820

:

Ryan: Yeah, and again, I'm, I'm,

you know, this is, part of the thing

821

:

I'll talk about too, but I'm pro

Lockley and Gideon as a relationship.

822

:

If this series kept going, I don't know

how they would have worked Lockley in.

823

:

But it's actually, I think, one

of the best dynamics of the show.

824

:

I like them together.

825

:

I like their bickering.

826

:

I like their brashness.

827

:

I like that they're both control

freaks, but they manage to

828

:

get through to one another.

829

:

I think both actors carry

the scenes together.

830

:

I think they have chemistry, but in

the most, you know, weird of ways.

831

:

But I don't know, realistically,

how you would have that continue on.

832

:

in any function other than, like, it's

hard enough how they do it in, in this 13

833

:

episodes, where it's like, oh, Lockley's

Starfury just happens to be lost in space

834

:

in this moment, like, that was absurd,

but I was happy to see them, but Yeah.

835

:

like, this episode, like, I'm watching

and I'm going, Crusade doesn't have any

836

:

romance, and I actually like that in

Babylon 5, I like the romance in B5, as

837

:

I said, I think it's some of JMS's best

writing, Crusade doesn't have the time for

838

:

it for the most part, and weirdly enough,

Lockley, who is tied to being the ruler

839

:

of Babylon 5, is the vehicle to allow

that to happen, but it's like, inherently,

840

:

how can you have her in the show?

841

:

How can you have these two in the show?

842

:

Xhafer: have to do limited episodes.

843

:

Here's my pitch.

844

:

You do a couple limited episodes.

845

:

You have one where Lockley gets leave

and Gideon doesn't, so she's just

846

:

on the Excalibur for her time off.

847

:

And is stuck in an Excalibur adventure.

848

:

And then you have the same.

849

:

You have Gideon get, like, a week off.

850

:

And then we'll see Matheson

running the ship doing stuff.

851

:

And we'll cut over to Gideon

on Babylon 5 for, like, an

852

:

assassination on an ambassador plot.

853

:

Cause Lockley's not off.

854

:

And it's just a normal episode

of Babylon 5 with Gideon.

855

:

And then we have one where we do a

like, Captain's Holiday kind of thing

856

:

from TNG where they're both on vacation

and they go to some vacation planet

857

:

but they get caught in some other

adventure and some bullshit happens.

858

:

I think that's the only way, and you could

do One of each of those in a season, and

859

:

it would probably not feel particularly

forced or a little more organic.

860

:

But I agree, like, just finding your

Starfury in the middle of space is

861

:

absolutely mind bogglingly insane.

862

:

The coincidence, like,

863

:

Laura: Yeah.

864

:

Ryan: Like, that's The tragedy of

Crusade, is, what good things there

865

:

are, are struggling to get out.

866

:

And or, because of the format,

or the network meddling, You

867

:

can't bring them to fruition.

868

:

You just can't bring them to fruition.

869

:

Like, I think this relationship is

one of the strongest things of the

870

:

series, but because of the format,

and because of all of these extraneous

871

:

circumstances, How can you make it happen

realistically within the series without

872

:

having to drastically change things

in which us B5 fans would agree with?

873

:

Like.

874

:

I don't believe Lockley would quit

working at Babylon 5 just to be with him.

875

:

Never.

876

:

And I don't believe he would stop

doing the mission to be with her.

877

:

Like, it's one of those things where

it's like, and throughout this episode

878

:

we're gonna have like, little moments

where it's like, Oh, that's interesting.

879

:

You don't get time.

880

:

There's just not time, and there's

just no way that a lot of this

881

:

could have got to bloom even

without the network interference.

882

:

Xhafer: like, Pegasus ing and adding a

second ship that Lockley is in command of.

883

:

And then they're just doing, they're

going to the same places for some reason,

884

:

which is also not what would happen.

885

:

You'd, you'd divvy up and do the things.

886

:

Like, it's just, there's

just no way to make it work.

887

:

Logistically.

888

:

Laura: You could only get

away with like sending her.

889

:

Because Sheridan's like, oh, well, Lockley

has dealt with these people before, so

890

:

let's send her out there, too.

891

:

You can only do that,

892

:

like, once or twice.

893

:

Ryan: was hard enough to believe

that they would let her be the person

894

:

running security at Mars conference

thing, like, what, not Zack?

895

:

Like, you know, that's insane,

896

:

but You have to get her in there,

you have to get her But here's the

897

:

thing, we can talk about all this,

898

:

but here's how the scene goes.

899

:

They have a nice moment of

connection, and then I smell ozone!

900

:

Oh no, an attack!

901

:

And now we jump around!

902

:

And now there's people with red

jewels on their head because

903

:

I've watched Logan's run.

904

:

And now we're gonna b b blast laser beams,

and it's like What nice moment you have

905

:

is interrupted by a bunch of just garbage.

906

:

Just plain, jane, boring,

90's schlock action garbage.

907

:

Laura: Mm hmm.

908

:

Yeah.

909

:

I did like the rhinestone hand, though.

910

:

That made me laugh really hard.

911

:

Xhafer: I call them

infinity gems, in my notes.

912

:

Laura: yeah.

913

:

Okay, yeah.

914

:

Xhafer: Cynthia tells Chambers about the

real Max, but they are interrupted by

915

:

Crime Guy, who makes a real rapey comment

about how to pay off the other 50k.

916

:

Laura: Yeah.

917

:

Xhafer: had to pause and just

get up for a minute and just

918

:

be all like, That wasn't cool.

919

:

That was, that was too much TNT.

920

:

Ugh.

921

:

Laura: TNT loves to allude to something.

922

:

Yeah.

923

:

Ryan: I'll

924

:

Give the, uh,

925

:

give the actor credit who plays this thug.

926

:

I, I thought he did a good job

playing like, apathetic gangster man.

927

:

Like, you could, like, he just had this

certain aura of just like, I've, you

928

:

know I'm a professional criminal, right?

929

:

Like, you can't intimidate me.

930

:

What are you?

931

:

You're some fucking yuppie and

you're gonna come in here and

932

:

tell me oh, I've got principles.

933

:

Oh fuck Get out of here, you know,

and he and he sells this actor

934

:

sells the goofiness of he kidnapped

this woman's cats That's so stupid.

935

:

But yet when we actually spend time

with this guy and even in this scene

936

:

There's genuine moments of just

like, he really doesn't care and

937

:

it's, it's unsettled, unsettling.

938

:

And again, it's not the greatest

performance ever, but I think he brings

939

:

something to a very nothing role.

940

:

Laura: Yeah.

941

:

Yeah.

942

:

And in the previous episode, I had

told Ja'far that I thought the most

943

:

unbelievable part of the description

of this episode was that Max Eilerson

944

:

had found someone to marry him.

945

:

She explains herself that Max was

like the really smart, but mouthy

946

:

kid, and So I guess we've all known

each other since we were children.

947

:

Cause even the goon is like talking

like he knew Eilerson when they were

948

:

younger, or at least he knows all about

949

:

his childhood apparently.

950

:

Ryan: He can just read him.

951

:

He can read who Max is

just because he's so

952

:

obvious.

953

:

Um, Her description of

Max is just uh, JMS.

954

:

Laura: I kind

955

:

of

956

:

Ryan: just JMS.

957

:

It's how he describes

himself and his life.

958

:

It's just JMS.

959

:

It's

960

:

just Max is the JMS

stand in for the series.

961

:

Max and Galen are the two J

voices of JMS in this show.

962

:

And I think that's so peculiar.

963

:

Um, I'm a Max fan, by

the way, shock of shocks.

964

:

I'm, I'm pro Max.

965

:

I'm, I'm, I'm HBO Max, you know, I

like Max as a character and we'll talk

966

:

about it as we get more Max material,

but I, I like this description of

967

:

him of just like, he was a prodigy,

he was academically wise, but he

968

:

had, he had no social understanding.

969

:

He had no friends.

970

:

He was always someone.

971

:

proving themselves and

in competition and so.

972

:

His trajectory of being a corporate

yuppie makes, makes complete sense.

973

:

Makes complete sense, like, this is

someone who was almost bred to be this

974

:

way, and the fact that she lost this

relationship because he became a good

975

:

company man, I, I felt that was a really

good sentiment, and, Again, not to keep

976

:

psychoanalyzing JMS, but, y'know, Him

and his wife's relationship, especially

977

:

during this time in life, is interesting.

978

:

It's very interesting.

979

:

Laura: Well, I'll spoil something

for you for an episode you haven't

980

:

gotten to listen to yet, Ryan,

but I kicked Max Eilerson out of

981

:

the reboot.

982

:

I do not like

983

:

Max Eilerson.

984

:

Ryan: Don't worry,

he'll be the star of the

985

:

reboot.

986

:

Laura: Mm.

987

:

I just.

988

:

I, you know, I've dealt with this man

kind of, you know, in, in different points

989

:

of life and I don't got time for that.

990

:

I don't.

991

:

And I think that her deal was, you know,

she probably thought I can fix him and,

992

:

you know, you can't honey, don't waste

993

:

your time.

994

:

You got enough life to live on your

995

:

own.

996

:

So.

997

:

Ryan: No, only a magical technomage, or

998

:

a thief alien, or a guy who speaks

to a mysterious box can fix this guy.

999

:

Laura: Uh Huh.

:

00:48:23,368 --> 00:48:23,788

Xhafer: So,

:

00:48:23,793 --> 00:48:25,903

Laura: apocalypse box could fix anything.

:

00:48:26,228 --> 00:48:27,654

Xhafer: chambers uh, punches.

:

00:48:27,654 --> 00:48:31,664

This guy he runs out Gideon

and Lockley are on the run.

:

00:48:32,234 --> 00:48:36,294

After Ardettir gets punched by

Chambers, he gets dropped by the Drazi.

:

00:48:36,688 --> 00:48:41,468

And the Larkins get sneak attacked by

Gideon after Lockley distracts them.

:

00:48:41,938 --> 00:48:45,058

Gideon uses a big pipe

to subdue the Larkins.

:

00:48:45,544 --> 00:48:46,194

Larkins.

:

00:48:47,164 --> 00:48:48,384

Yeah, yeah, Larkins.

:

00:48:48,394 --> 00:48:50,968

Like the uh, like the guy from uh, H.

:

00:48:51,028 --> 00:48:51,788

John Benjamin.

:

00:48:51,838 --> 00:48:52,198

Yeah,

:

00:48:52,642 --> 00:48:53,552

Ryan: it bothers me.

:

00:48:54,412 --> 00:48:59,902

It does bother me that these

people are willing to kill Lockley.

:

00:49:00,442 --> 00:49:04,592

The justification that the script comes

up with for why they will want to kill

:

00:49:04,602 --> 00:49:07,622

Lockley is like, it's piss, it's poor.

:

00:49:07,812 --> 00:49:09,032

It's, it's super poor.

:

00:49:09,042 --> 00:49:09,912

It's so

:

00:49:10,852 --> 00:49:16,472

weak and I, I, I know I'm a Lockley fan

and I, I love Tracy Scoggin's performance

:

00:49:16,482 --> 00:49:21,972

and I think this is a case in which

because she's such a good actress.

:

00:49:22,527 --> 00:49:26,997

It makes the script even worse,

because when she turns around and

:

00:49:26,997 --> 00:49:33,337

looks at these two bizarre aliens,

and, like, has a moment of connection

:

00:49:33,337 --> 00:49:37,727

with them, and like, I believed it

so much that it made me retroactively

:

00:49:37,737 --> 00:49:42,967

go back to the story and make it even

more damning, of like, no way would

:

00:49:42,967 --> 00:49:45,362

these aliens Fucking kill this woman.

:

00:49:45,362 --> 00:49:46,182

There's no way.

:

00:49:46,252 --> 00:49:50,442

There's no way in my mind with what

we're given and Tracey Scoggins when

:

00:49:50,452 --> 00:49:52,142

she's, you know Luring them to the trap.

:

00:49:52,422 --> 00:49:53,682

She's so convincing.

:

00:49:53,682 --> 00:49:56,772

She is the commanding

officer of Babylon 5.

:

00:49:56,842 --> 00:50:00,832

She's the diplomat She's the one that's

probably met with these people day to day

:

00:50:00,832 --> 00:50:06,042

to day to day I just can't believe that

they would do this The script is just

:

00:50:06,242 --> 00:50:10,437

having to bend over backwards to find

reasons for them to be The traditional

:

00:50:10,447 --> 00:50:15,827

alien bad guys who run around and shoot

lasers because we've got to kill Gideon.

:

00:50:16,127 --> 00:50:17,347

Oh, and Lockley's there too.

:

00:50:17,367 --> 00:50:19,367

So, oh, you know, two birds, one stone.

:

00:50:19,397 --> 00:50:21,277

It just, I'm sorry, JMS.

:

00:50:21,287 --> 00:50:22,427

It just does not work

:

00:50:22,457 --> 00:50:26,347

Xhafer: it doesn't work so

much, it makes me disbelieve it.

:

00:50:26,762 --> 00:50:31,942

Like, I don't think that they

were actually selling technology

:

00:50:32,362 --> 00:50:34,712

and that this was all cover.

:

00:50:34,712 --> 00:50:36,442

They were just trying

to save their own asses.

:

00:50:37,062 --> 00:50:42,152

I think that their religious zealotry

and fear of the other got so much

:

00:50:42,152 --> 00:50:45,642

that they were willing to kill

both of them to prevent anyone from

:

00:50:45,642 --> 00:50:47,502

disrupting the sanctity of their world.

:

00:50:47,802 --> 00:50:52,462

And that their premier, whoever shows

up at the end, I don't remember if

:

00:50:52,462 --> 00:50:56,292

we get a title for him to explain

away what these guys were doing.

:

00:50:56,967 --> 00:50:59,487

Because we learned they're

like, the pope of the religion.

:

00:51:00,027 --> 00:51:02,237

You know, they say that these

guys are like, they're religious

:

00:51:02,237 --> 00:51:05,857

leaders that were, you know, the

most uncorruptible, were corrupted.

:

00:51:06,247 --> 00:51:10,817

And I think really, it's just, they got

ahead of themselves, and they bought

:

00:51:10,817 --> 00:51:15,197

into their own bullshit, and their

own zealotry, and just ran with it.

:

00:51:15,387 --> 00:51:18,557

And he makes this excuse to save face.

:

00:51:18,847 --> 00:51:20,517

Not because it's actually true.

:

00:51:21,191 --> 00:51:21,651

Ryan: Mmm.

:

00:51:22,171 --> 00:51:23,181

Interesting read.

:

00:51:23,191 --> 00:51:28,896

And again, If only the episode spent time

on what it promised at the beginning.

:

00:51:29,326 --> 00:51:32,586

What it promised at the beginning

could have been an equivalent

:

00:51:32,596 --> 00:51:36,346

of so many great B5 stories.

:

00:51:36,346 --> 00:51:39,566

I thought of Believers at the beginning

of this episode, in which you have

:

00:51:39,566 --> 00:51:45,286

a culture that's so staunch in their

religious opinion, and our characters

:

00:51:46,076 --> 00:51:49,776

have different views, and they have

to lock horns on that, but instead

:

00:51:49,776 --> 00:51:56,121

it just becomes They are guys who

are going to kill you with a weapon.

:

00:51:56,351 --> 00:52:00,081

And that's inherently less

interesting, because at the end

:

00:52:00,081 --> 00:52:02,091

of this all, what do we gain?

:

00:52:02,951 --> 00:52:04,321

What do we gain theologically?

:

00:52:04,881 --> 00:52:07,711

What do we gain on an intellectual level?

:

00:52:08,281 --> 00:52:08,771

Nothing.

:

00:52:09,051 --> 00:52:09,791

We get nothing.

:

00:52:09,791 --> 00:52:13,651

Oh, there's some stuff we can talk about

at the end in that spin story about like,

:

00:52:14,231 --> 00:52:18,491

you know, Oh, you humans are so despicable

that we actually want you there.

:

00:52:18,491 --> 00:52:22,521

Like that's something but

that's also like so minimal.

:

00:52:22,691 --> 00:52:23,631

It's so minimal.

:

00:52:24,890 --> 00:52:28,060

Xhafer: After this, we get a shot of

the Excalibur Park next to the station.

:

00:52:28,785 --> 00:52:30,585

I love this shot.

:

00:52:31,355 --> 00:52:33,255

This is such a good shot.

:

00:52:33,505 --> 00:52:37,585

It's just, this is the first time I felt

like the Excalibur might actually have

:

00:52:37,585 --> 00:52:39,705

miles of basketball courts inside of it.

:

00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,530

Um, it really, really does a lot to

show us the actual size of this thing.

:

00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,410

Laura: I think this is the first

episode that there wasn't some

:

00:52:50,420 --> 00:52:52,710

bad CGI that really took me out of

:

00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:53,280

Xhafer: yeah.

:

00:52:53,950 --> 00:52:55,240

Laura: This is actually really good.

:

00:52:55,470 --> 00:52:56,670

Xhafer: Yeah, this scene

looked really good.

:

00:52:57,260 --> 00:53:01,695

Max and the Debtor discuss what a

bitch Max is but the Nerf ring Around

:

00:53:01,695 --> 00:53:05,115

his neck, with the thing from Battle

Royale, so we get a little, if he

:

00:53:05,115 --> 00:53:08,825

comes within ten feet of me, he'll have

a hard time getting a head in life.

:

00:53:09,422 --> 00:53:11,030

Laura: Eh, heh, heh,

:

00:53:11,317 --> 00:53:12,067

Xhafer: blow off his head.

:

00:53:12,277 --> 00:53:12,647

Yeah.

:

00:53:13,347 --> 00:53:14,137

No, nothing, right?

:

00:53:14,137 --> 00:53:14,787

Okay, fine.

:

00:53:14,797 --> 00:53:15,377

Stonewall me.

:

00:53:15,377 --> 00:53:16,197

I see how it is.

:

00:53:16,197 --> 00:53:19,572

Heh heh heh,

:

00:53:19,937 --> 00:53:20,897

Ryan: no, I'm sorry.

:

00:53:21,177 --> 00:53:22,497

I'm sorry, buddy.

:

00:53:22,537 --> 00:53:23,877

I just couldn't join you on that

:

00:53:23,877 --> 00:53:24,297

ride.

:

00:53:25,272 --> 00:53:28,942

Xhafer: making a joke straight from

Austin Powers is not enough for you.

:

00:53:28,992 --> 00:53:29,922

I see how it is.

:

00:53:30,613 --> 00:53:31,293

Ryan: Yeah, baby.

:

00:53:31,293 --> 00:53:31,403

Yeah,

:

00:53:31,907 --> 00:53:34,457

Xhafer: He agrees to leave

Max and Cynthia alone.

:

00:53:35,167 --> 00:53:38,327

But you know who's not

alone in this next scene?

:

00:53:39,273 --> 00:53:43,733

Laura: Oh, oh, no!

:

00:53:43,768 --> 00:53:46,278

Ryan: came in and saved

everything we need.

:

00:53:46,318 --> 00:53:49,008

Evan Chen, he understood the assignment.

:

00:53:49,008 --> 00:53:52,548

Transcribed You say his music is

inappropriate, this is 100 percent

:

00:53:52,548 --> 00:53:57,948

appropriate because I love Lockley

and Gideon Shaw, but boy oh, boy,

:

00:53:58,038 --> 00:54:01,998

you can feel TNT's grubby little

fingers all over this scene.

:

00:54:02,348 --> 00:54:03,598

And Evan Chen's like, Yeah,

:

00:54:03,598 --> 00:54:04,718

this is just porn.

:

00:54:05,158 --> 00:54:06,418

You know what this is.

:

00:54:06,977 --> 00:54:08,097

Xhafer: jazz porn

:

00:54:08,098 --> 00:54:09,198

Ryan: God bless Evan.

:

00:54:09,707 --> 00:54:10,907

Xhafer: the music in this is absurd.

:

00:54:10,917 --> 00:54:16,177

They agreed to conserve her

real water shower and they

:

00:54:16,177 --> 00:54:18,347

get undressed in the shower?

:

00:54:19,312 --> 00:54:23,672

It's, it's like, okay guys, um, you

know what, I'm done questioning things.

:

00:54:23,682 --> 00:54:27,212

And then we get the least

subtle shot in TV history.

:

00:54:27,772 --> 00:54:32,262

As a vaguely penile rocket

enters the station, as the

:

00:54:32,262 --> 00:54:34,242

porn music continues to play.

:

00:54:35,331 --> 00:54:38,181

I was just laughing my ass off at this.

:

00:54:38,181 --> 00:54:40,887

This is just, it's so absurd.

:

00:54:44,989 --> 00:54:47,409

Laura: I was so distracted

by the sexy saxophone.

:

00:54:47,409 --> 00:54:48,199

I missed the

:

00:54:48,589 --> 00:54:49,219

rocket and

:

00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:49,699

coming into

:

00:54:49,739 --> 00:54:50,059

Xhafer: this.

:

00:54:50,089 --> 00:54:53,009

I had to pause this, I

was laughing so much.

:

00:54:53,059 --> 00:54:55,209

Grab Beth, show her what had happened.

:

00:54:56,999 --> 00:54:57,749

It's so good.

:

00:54:59,269 --> 00:55:03,908

Ryan: I was laughing at the uh, the

Jessica Rabbit like silhouette that

:

00:55:03,918 --> 00:55:05,918

they had for Lockley in the shower.

:

00:55:05,918 --> 00:55:09,758

I was like, oh boy, this

is, this is, this is a lot.

:

00:55:09,758 --> 00:55:11,488

And hey, Babylon 5 was horny.

:

00:55:11,823 --> 00:55:12,383

As well.

:

00:55:12,423 --> 00:55:15,503

Like, we can't just blame

TNT for this either.

:

00:55:15,503 --> 00:55:18,343

Like, this could have

been in Babylon 5 as well.

:

00:55:18,353 --> 00:55:22,843

Like, we had so many

moments of weird sex stuff.

:

00:55:23,013 --> 00:55:27,833

You know, pleasure threshold, the

list, frictionless sheets, you know,

:

00:55:27,883 --> 00:55:31,333

all from all from that was like that

was all from the first episode, too.

:

00:55:31,813 --> 00:55:36,943

Um, so this isn't, like, truly out of

pocket, but also there's just something

:

00:55:36,943 --> 00:55:44,293

about it where You just know that this is

a desperate last gasp of Crusade, because

:

00:55:44,293 --> 00:55:50,573

they're, You, it's like, the whole entire

episode is just, Fine, here's Babylon

:

00:55:50,603 --> 00:55:58,893

5, here's Tracey Scoggins, Here's sex,

you know, here's, pfft, I don't know, an

:

00:55:58,893 --> 00:56:04,276

action scene with uh, Chambers, I guess,

you know, She can kick someone, sure, you

:

00:56:04,276 --> 00:56:08,156

know, she's a tall lady, she's six foot,

She's six foot tall, so let her do a kick.

:

00:56:08,366 --> 00:56:10,856

She was in Mortal Kombat

Annihilation, let her do some fights.

:

00:56:11,281 --> 00:56:11,951

Laura: She looked great.

:

00:56:11,951 --> 00:56:12,311

Yeah.

:

00:56:12,351 --> 00:56:12,681

Yeah,

:

00:56:13,101 --> 00:56:13,271

Ryan: Yeah.

:

00:56:13,271 --> 00:56:15,921

like, but this episode, like, as

much as I like it, you can tell

:

00:56:15,921 --> 00:56:21,841

there's like a level of like, okay,

this, you want stupid, here you go.

:

00:56:23,631 --> 00:56:26,201

Laura: I guess I went

stupid cuz I loved all of it

:

00:56:27,818 --> 00:56:28,668

except the sex

:

00:56:29,216 --> 00:56:30,986

Xhafer: Cynthia and Max say goodbye.

:

00:56:31,786 --> 00:56:35,326

Another Larkin explains that it wasn't

the religious zealotry but greed that

:

00:56:35,326 --> 00:56:36,896

caused them to attack the captains.

:

00:56:36,926 --> 00:56:38,556

They were stealing and selling tech.

:

00:56:38,596 --> 00:56:39,916

We've talked about this.

:

00:56:41,006 --> 00:56:44,046

They will allow the Excalibur to

come to test their faith against

:

00:56:44,046 --> 00:56:45,936

the humans extreme corruption.

:

00:56:46,656 --> 00:56:49,156

I do think that's a fun and

interesting idea, and I hope it

:

00:56:49,166 --> 00:56:52,076

would have had payoff later in the

series if they got to keep going.

:

00:56:52,486 --> 00:56:54,106

But I doubt it.

:

00:56:54,436 --> 00:56:55,586

Laura: I thought it was pretty funny.

:

00:56:55,586 --> 00:56:59,836

I know that like the whole, Oh, those

guys were actually the really corrupt

:

00:56:59,836 --> 00:57:01,486

ones and they've been so corrupted.

:

00:57:01,496 --> 00:57:03,366

Now we need to test

everybody else's faith.

:

00:57:03,366 --> 00:57:07,406

I know it's just kind of like

a whitewash over like this

:

00:57:07,406 --> 00:57:09,046

plot is actually not very good.

:

00:57:09,686 --> 00:57:12,886

But I thought it was pretty

funny, especially because he

:

00:57:12,886 --> 00:57:15,466

also vogues about the most holy.

:

00:57:15,526 --> 00:57:17,236

So love it

:

00:57:17,836 --> 00:57:21,476

Xhafer: after this Lockley and Gideon

talk about their fuckin but they remain

:

00:57:21,486 --> 00:57:25,216

married to their work, so while it was

fun, it's not gonna work long term.

:

00:57:26,226 --> 00:57:29,206

And Gideon's fine with keeping

it casual, he's on the same page.

:

00:57:29,986 --> 00:57:31,376

And so they go grab dinner.

:

00:57:31,772 --> 00:57:32,212

Laura: Yeah.

:

00:57:32,282 --> 00:57:33,402

They're going back to Arby's.

:

00:57:33,452 --> 00:57:33,472

Yeah.

:

00:57:34,501 --> 00:57:35,971

Ryan: And maybe some,

maybe something else,

:

00:57:35,971 --> 00:57:36,531

too, you never

:

00:57:36,601 --> 00:57:37,631

Xhafer: time for dessert.

:

00:57:37,741 --> 00:57:40,061

yeah, hint hint wink wink

nudge nudge say no more.

:

00:57:40,344 --> 00:57:44,164

yeah,

:

00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:45,730

Ryan: phrase from number one.

:

00:57:46,090 --> 00:57:47,090

Hey, where's number one?

:

00:57:47,110 --> 00:57:48,490

She should have been in this episode, too.

:

00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:49,830

Where, where are my friends?

:

00:57:49,870 --> 00:57:50,380

Where's Dr.

:

00:57:50,380 --> 00:57:50,900

Hobbes?

:

00:57:51,410 --> 00:57:52,950

Maybe she has an opinion on the virus.

:

00:57:53,420 --> 00:57:54,180

Um, yeah.

:

00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,190

Again, I liked how this

conversation was handled.

:

00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:01,620

After all of the absurdity of that sex

scene, I like that there was a moment of

:

00:58:01,620 --> 00:58:03,930

just, Hey, come here, come here Gideon.

:

00:58:03,930 --> 00:58:08,470

I just want to lay down the ground

rules of just like, I'm not in

:

00:58:08,990 --> 00:58:10,540

for a relationship right now.

:

00:58:10,540 --> 00:58:15,650

And the absurdity of her being like, I,

you know, I don't usually move this fast.

:

00:58:16,125 --> 00:58:17,785

Coming from the woman

who married Sheridan.

:

00:58:18,705 --> 00:58:23,315

Uh, Yeah, sure Lockley, you

really are the one who kind of

:

00:58:23,565 --> 00:58:26,455

just runs into relationships

without thinking about it first.

:

00:58:26,455 --> 00:58:27,925

Yeah, that's definitely not you.

:

00:58:28,035 --> 00:58:29,215

That's so not you.

:

00:58:29,245 --> 00:58:32,575

That was one of the most like, I

don't know if JMS is like being a

:

00:58:32,575 --> 00:58:35,415

little bit funny there, or if he

genuinely thinks that's Lockley.

:

00:58:35,525 --> 00:58:39,010

I took it as funny, I took it

as like, This is the woman who,

:

00:58:39,010 --> 00:58:42,430

like, thought, didn't think for

a second, and then married an

:

00:58:42,430 --> 00:58:43,975

idiot, and then was like, oh god,

:

00:58:43,975 --> 00:58:44,170

I

:

00:58:44,170 --> 00:58:44,610

married an

:

00:58:44,774 --> 00:58:45,394

Xhafer: too, right?

:

00:58:45,404 --> 00:58:47,694

They talk about how it

was like a swirlwind where

:

00:58:47,694 --> 00:58:48,964

they got married instantly.

:

00:58:49,317 --> 00:58:49,907

Yeah,

:

00:58:50,167 --> 00:58:50,637

Yeah.

:

00:58:51,706 --> 00:58:54,026

After this, we cut over to the Excalibur.

:

00:58:54,176 --> 00:58:56,386

Max gets a picture of Mr.

:

00:58:56,386 --> 00:58:57,856

Kitty from Cynthia.

:

00:58:58,656 --> 00:59:00,246

What are the logistics here?

:

00:59:00,246 --> 00:59:02,596

Was this a fax?

:

00:59:02,956 --> 00:59:05,806

Was this an actual photo

that came from FedEx?

:

00:59:05,806 --> 00:59:11,096

It's like How the fuck does

this arrive to, to Max?

:

00:59:11,106 --> 00:59:12,076

I've got logistics

:

00:59:12,212 --> 00:59:13,752

Laura: he gets like mail.

:

00:59:13,862 --> 00:59:19,282

It's, it's like there's a person whose

job on the Excalibur is to go hand out

:

00:59:19,302 --> 00:59:21,962

all the paper mail that they somehow get.

:

00:59:23,976 --> 00:59:24,606

Xhafer: And that's it.

:

00:59:24,651 --> 00:59:25,261

Laura: Great.

:

00:59:25,311 --> 00:59:26,091

Fantastic.

:

00:59:26,686 --> 00:59:32,826

Ryan: Don't forget, don't forget the

credits is dedicated to the cat, and

:

00:59:32,826 --> 00:59:37,606

that it's, you know, real cat, and that

is, you know, off chasing, was it star

:

00:59:37,606 --> 00:59:39,356

mice or whatever, and it's very sweet.

:

00:59:39,606 --> 00:59:45,096

Like, the end of the episode is very

nice, and, you know, I'll just say it.

:

00:59:45,636 --> 00:59:49,306

This is JMS also finding a way

to write a whole episode about

:

00:59:49,306 --> 00:59:50,606

how much he loved his cats.

:

00:59:51,451 --> 00:59:59,406

And We've talked so much over all of our

podcasts about the weird ways JMS uses

:

00:59:59,426 --> 01:00:04,206

his series to just vent about whatever

or like get things off his chest like Oh,

:

01:00:04,216 --> 01:00:08,836

max We'll talk about salt now or whatever

it is, you know, and and it's like,

:

01:00:08,836 --> 01:00:13,526

okay But this is actually one of the

ones I'm like, look I get it If I was

:

01:00:13,526 --> 01:00:18,016

in charge of a show and I was running it

for like seven years or however long I'd

:

01:00:18,016 --> 01:00:21,641

be like, okay I would also want to write

an episode about how much I love my dog,

:

01:00:21,711 --> 01:00:25,351

say, or like, how much he loves his cat,

like, I, you know what, this is one of

:

01:00:25,351 --> 01:00:27,731

those endings where I'm just like, JMS.

:

01:00:28,356 --> 01:00:29,776

I see you as a person.

:

01:00:29,786 --> 01:00:32,216

Like, I see you as a real

living, breathing person.

:

01:00:32,226 --> 01:00:37,656

You're a dork, you're just like us, you

couldn't resist, and I don't blame you.

:

01:00:38,476 --> 01:00:38,946

Laura: Mm hmm.

:

01:00:39,656 --> 01:00:40,046

Yeah.

:

01:00:40,056 --> 01:00:43,866

I wonder if he chose in the, in his

order, you know, we've talked about

:

01:00:43,866 --> 01:00:50,941

there's no good order for Crusade to,

end crusade in his order on this for Mr.

:

01:00:50,941 --> 01:00:51,451

Kitty.

:

01:00:52,179 --> 01:00:53,029

That's real nice.

:

01:00:53,349 --> 01:00:58,179

I don't think the music that they put

over the credits to memorialize Mr.

:

01:00:58,179 --> 01:01:00,939

Kitty is very good, but that's fine.

:

01:01:04,769 --> 01:01:09,209

Yeah, Max says at the end when

he's talking to Cynthia, you

:

01:01:09,209 --> 01:01:12,449

know, she, she apologizes for

always calling him for help.

:

01:01:12,449 --> 01:01:15,739

And he says that in his, in his

entire life, he's only loved three

:

01:01:15,739 --> 01:01:18,879

things, his work, the cat, and her.

:

01:01:20,034 --> 01:01:25,364

And I think, again, this is much, much

self insert from a certain writer.

:

01:01:25,374 --> 01:01:25,904

Yes.

:

01:01:26,332 --> 01:01:28,302

Ryan: Of course, from Peter David.

:

01:01:32,437 --> 01:01:34,557

Xhafer: Well, that's that.

:

01:01:34,827 --> 01:01:35,537

We did it.

:

01:01:35,817 --> 01:01:39,367

Our Crusade to Finish Crusade is finished.

:

01:01:39,867 --> 01:01:41,507

Thanks for joining us

for this last one, Ryan.

:

01:01:42,057 --> 01:01:43,977

We don't have an episode

of Crusade next week.

:

01:01:43,977 --> 01:01:46,917

The next two weeks, we're gonna

do Crusade script readings.

:

01:01:47,397 --> 01:01:51,057

We're gonna read the Bester episode, and

then we're gonna read the season finale.

:

01:01:52,724 --> 01:01:56,404

after that, we're gonna do Book

Club for the Centauri Trilogy, Lost

:

01:01:56,424 --> 01:02:01,684

Tales, and then we're gonna do a

entirety of Babylon 5 universe.

:

01:02:02,024 --> 01:02:03,644

Retrospective episode.

:

01:02:03,644 --> 01:02:05,984

We're gonna take a couple weeks

off and then we'll be back

:

01:02:05,984 --> 01:02:08,354

with Battlestar Galactica:

:

01:02:08,972 --> 01:02:09,962

Ryan: But what about hypernauts?

:

01:02:11,846 --> 01:02:16,966

Xhafer: You know, I knew you

were gonna ask No glue for us.

:

01:02:16,966 --> 01:02:17,686

Sorry.

:

01:02:17,956 --> 01:02:19,886

The glue will not be loose.

:

01:02:19,886 --> 01:02:20,336

Maybe.

:

01:02:20,636 --> 01:02:25,486

Maybe if we ever get on that Patreon

and set all that up, but until then,

:

01:02:26,730 --> 01:02:29,570

Laura: That's that bonus

content that Ryan could pay for.

:

01:02:30,085 --> 01:02:32,665

Xhafer: speaking of which,

Ryan, I know you got a Patreon.

:

01:02:32,785 --> 01:02:34,885

Tell everyone where they can find Yum.

:

01:02:34,885 --> 01:02:35,335

Yum.

:

01:02:35,485 --> 01:02:36,752

And you

:

01:02:37,341 --> 01:02:41,576

Ryan: Well, Thank you so much for the,

the seamless, seamless transition.

:

01:02:42,156 --> 01:02:46,326

Well, I host a podcast with

my wife, Rachel, who has never

:

01:02:46,326 --> 01:02:47,956

watched an episode of Crusade.

:

01:02:47,956 --> 01:02:50,686

We didn't cover Crusade because

I just don't like it very much.

:

01:02:51,436 --> 01:02:53,296

Um, maybe one day.

:

01:02:53,326 --> 01:02:58,226

I have, I have a lot of, opinions on

it, but it was a case of just like, ah,

:

01:02:58,656 --> 01:03:04,646

I, I, I've done enough B5 for now, but

no, we have covered a lot of science

:

01:03:04,646 --> 01:03:10,886

fiction television, we have done Star Trek

Discovery, we have done all, you know, all

:

01:03:10,886 --> 01:03:14,696

the episodes of Babylon 5 and the movies,

we've gone through Space Above and.

:

01:03:14,706 --> 01:03:18,606

Beyond, which did have an

episode all about them receiving

:

01:03:18,616 --> 01:03:20,866

physical letters and mail, so.

:

01:03:21,106 --> 01:03:23,326

There's a series that actually

deals with the idea of if you're in

:

01:03:23,326 --> 01:03:24,746

space and how do you get letters.

:

01:03:24,746 --> 01:03:29,396

So there's a series that deals with that,

and we are going through the expanse.

:

01:03:29,766 --> 01:03:35,296

For the first time, we are watching it

as newcomers and we are, you know, a good

:

01:03:35,296 --> 01:03:39,426

chunk through and we have a Patreon in

which people can support the podcast,

:

01:03:39,436 --> 01:03:44,146

get episodes early and access to a

whole slew of other bonus materials.

:

01:03:44,146 --> 01:03:47,456

We give our thoughts on just things

we've been, you know, Participating

:

01:03:47,456 --> 01:03:51,766

in, watching, engaging, reading,

whatever it is, and we have a discord

:

01:03:51,766 --> 01:03:57,006

where we talk to people and just have

a, have a jolly old time, and yeah!

:

01:03:57,066 --> 01:04:00,136

So, we are on all of

the internet, basically.

:

01:04:00,146 --> 01:04:04,366

YumYumPod or YumYumPodcast, you will

find us, yes, even on the dark web.

:

01:04:04,939 --> 01:04:06,239

Xhafer: How do you find things on the dark

:

01:04:06,239 --> 01:04:06,649

web?

:

01:04:07,109 --> 01:04:10,759

Ryan: Well, Max Sileson

has a, has a data crystal.

:

01:04:14,429 --> 01:04:15,919

Laura: It's behind the alien porn,

:

01:04:15,919 --> 01:04:16,359

right?

:

01:04:16,479 --> 01:04:18,679

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, behind it, in it, Yeah.

:

01:04:20,043 --> 01:04:23,133

Xhafer: All right, well, thanks

so much for joining us, Ryan.

:

01:04:23,163 --> 01:04:24,003

Always a pleasure.

:

01:04:24,103 --> 01:04:26,683

Always appreciate your insight

and the amount of research that

:

01:04:26,683 --> 01:04:27,803

you do that I don't have to.

:

01:04:28,228 --> 01:04:29,118

Ryan: No, no problem.

:

01:04:29,118 --> 01:04:30,188

So you give this episode a 10,

:

01:04:30,198 --> 01:04:30,718

out of 10,

:

01:04:30,773 --> 01:04:30,993

Xhafer: to,

:

01:04:31,298 --> 01:04:31,938

Laura: Oh yeah, we didn't

:

01:04:32,113 --> 01:04:33,003

Xhafer: rated this episode.

:

01:04:33,003 --> 01:04:37,703

We, oh, we almost, can you imagine

dropping the ball on the last one?

:

01:04:40,378 --> 01:04:41,658

Laura: I can though, yeah.

:

01:04:41,917 --> 01:04:42,577

Ryan: were just too busy

:

01:04:42,577 --> 01:04:47,287

thinking about how Gary Cole has never had

a different haircut in his entire career.

:

01:04:47,797 --> 01:04:50,017

Laura: It's true, he's still

got the same haircut now.

:

01:04:50,057 --> 01:04:51,007

Like, if you Google

:

01:04:51,007 --> 01:04:51,137

him.

:

01:04:51,917 --> 01:04:55,697

Xhafer: Okay, well that's gonna live

rent free in my brain for a long time.

:

01:04:56,247 --> 01:04:59,727

I would give this three out

of four main guns firing.

:

01:04:59,957 --> 01:05:02,407

I, I did enjoy this episode,

this was a lot of fun.

:

01:05:02,447 --> 01:05:08,200

I think it, it, the uh, the blunder here

is the, I don't think it goes far enough.

:

01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:11,870

I think just with one line, here

or there, we could have made

:

01:05:11,870 --> 01:05:13,120

this episode a little bit better.

:

01:05:13,170 --> 01:05:15,529

With just a little bit more

explanation for why the aliens

:

01:05:15,529 --> 01:05:16,550

are doing what they're doing.

:

01:05:16,940 --> 01:05:19,420

Or maybe being a little bit more harsh.

:

01:05:19,775 --> 01:05:24,025

And bringing the criticism of

Gideon to what they're doing in

:

01:05:24,025 --> 01:05:27,875

line, making it just a little bit

clearer that's what's going on here.

:

01:05:28,305 --> 01:05:31,045

And this probably would have been

even higher for me, but as it

:

01:05:31,045 --> 01:05:32,975

stands, 3 out of 4 main guns firing.

:

01:05:33,257 --> 01:05:35,917

Laura: Yeah, I'm going to go ahead

and give it four because I had a much,

:

01:05:35,947 --> 01:05:40,697

much, much better time than the last two

episodes we watched, and I could not stop

:

01:05:40,697 --> 01:05:46,117

laughing after the episode was over about

Lockley and her roast beef sandwich.

:

01:05:48,657 --> 01:05:50,367

I just, I had a great time.

:

01:05:50,377 --> 01:05:55,557

You know, I, I thought the aliens were

over the top with everything they did.

:

01:05:55,567 --> 01:05:56,747

It was very funny.

:

01:05:56,797 --> 01:05:59,677

So this is, this is what I

needed after the last two

:

01:05:59,677 --> 01:06:02,307

episodes where I was just

very bored the whole time.

:

01:06:02,502 --> 01:06:02,702

Xhafer: Mhmm.

:

01:06:02,887 --> 01:06:03,607

Ryan: Mmm.

:

01:06:04,237 --> 01:06:05,987

It depends what you want

out of Crusade, isn't it?

:

01:06:06,542 --> 01:06:10,822

Because I think you and I want

different things out of the series.

:

01:06:10,862 --> 01:06:12,822

Like, the last two episodes

you covered, were they the

:

01:06:12,822 --> 01:06:14,672

Fiona Avery written episodes?

:

01:06:14,712 --> 01:06:17,072

Were they, like, the Well of Forever and,

:

01:06:17,426 --> 01:06:20,869

and uh, the other ones you

wrote with Doreena's people?

:

01:06:21,609 --> 01:06:24,839

Um, I like those episodes a lot.

:

01:06:24,929 --> 01:06:26,699

Um, Crusades Compromised.

:

01:06:27,163 --> 01:06:29,124

no matter what angle you come at it.

:

01:06:29,304 --> 01:06:34,874

And so every episode, I have to rate it

on like, this weird system of like, do

:

01:06:34,874 --> 01:06:38,794

I rate it within the framework of the

series, or as an episode on its own?

:

01:06:39,404 --> 01:06:43,214

And it's always tough, because as an

episode on its own, this is sloppy.

:

01:06:43,494 --> 01:06:44,084

It's messy.

:

01:06:44,163 --> 01:06:45,084

It's all over the place.

:

01:06:45,734 --> 01:06:48,104

It doesn't really have much to say.

:

01:06:48,104 --> 01:06:52,874

It completely whiffs a lot of the

great intellectual and thought

:

01:06:52,874 --> 01:06:57,004

provoking material you could have,

and just wastes it on just Bad guys

:

01:06:57,004 --> 01:06:58,894

run around with jewels in their hand.

:

01:06:59,714 --> 01:07:02,064

I would never recommend

this episode to anyone.

:

01:07:02,064 --> 01:07:07,054

But in the framework of Crusade,

it's goofy and fine, and it's

:

01:07:07,054 --> 01:07:08,413

got great character stuff.

:

01:07:08,413 --> 01:07:09,814

I love the character stuff.

:

01:07:09,814 --> 01:07:12,394

And we didn't talk about it too

much within the episode, but

:

01:07:12,554 --> 01:07:14,163

I actually liked Max's story.

:

01:07:14,694 --> 01:07:18,054

I actually liked humanizing Max and

giving him a little bit more, because

:

01:07:18,394 --> 01:07:23,044

in my version of Crusade, ones where

we had more episodes like the Needs

:

01:07:23,044 --> 01:07:26,227

of Earth or the Fiona Avery episodes,

where there's a little bit more

:

01:07:26,227 --> 01:07:32,379

of a Cynicism, but also melancholy

and a little bit of hope there too.

:

01:07:32,839 --> 01:07:37,069

Max is the character Crusade would have.

:

01:07:37,109 --> 01:07:42,288

I like the idea of Max, I like the

performance of Max, as like this heartless

:

01:07:42,288 --> 01:07:46,439

corporate stooge who, through the

course of the adventures, will offer a

:

01:07:46,439 --> 01:07:48,859

counterpoint that many people would offer.

:

01:07:48,899 --> 01:07:53,079

Like, one of the things is, why is

this ship always taking detours?

:

01:07:53,469 --> 01:07:53,899

Xhafer: Mhmm.

:

01:07:54,109 --> 01:07:57,479

Ryan: Don't you have to focus on the

mission and Max is the character that

:

01:07:57,489 --> 01:08:03,969

vocalizes that but to a degree that is

like Narcissistic and mean but also here's

:

01:08:03,969 --> 01:08:07,538

a heart underneath it all and he evolves

and changes and like in the course of a

:

01:08:07,538 --> 01:08:12,089

series He could have been you know The

one of the big characters of like look

:

01:08:12,089 --> 01:08:16,049

how much he evolved and changed and I

thought this episode did a good job With

:

01:08:16,059 --> 01:08:21,609

that where he was sweet, but still a prick

like it didn't compromise like, you know

:

01:08:21,609 --> 01:08:25,698

sometimes when you see Oh, this guy's a

prick, but in this episode, it's a very

:

01:08:25,698 --> 01:08:29,419

special episode where we make sure you

know he's a good guy because he has a cat.

:

01:08:30,118 --> 01:08:33,158

Um, he's still a prick at the same time.

:

01:08:33,158 --> 01:08:34,238

so I like the balance.

:

01:08:34,249 --> 01:08:37,399

So I give this one a

three out of four as well.

:

01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:39,488

I think it just, it misses it.

:

01:08:39,488 --> 01:08:45,269

I just wish Crusade was more brooding

and dark and I wish it was more, like,

:

01:08:45,408 --> 01:08:49,818

episodes like the Fiona Avery ones

where the characters are like, you know,

:

01:08:50,404 --> 01:08:57,004

I'm a gambling man, and I talk to an

evil box, and I Or I'm a techno mage

:

01:08:57,004 --> 01:09:01,743

who, underneath all of my bravado, I'm

lovelorned, and you know, I, I just, you

:

01:09:01,743 --> 01:09:06,323

know, I, I, and all of that, and instead

you get episodes where it's like, Dr.

:

01:09:06,323 --> 01:09:09,224

Chambers, who should be the most

important character in the series, by the

:

01:09:09,224 --> 01:09:09,464

way,

:

01:09:09,799 --> 01:09:10,207

Xhafer: Mhmm.

:

01:09:11,254 --> 01:09:14,004

Ryan: Um, she's here too!

:

01:09:14,854 --> 01:09:15,674

To kick!

:

01:09:16,314 --> 01:09:16,644

Laura: Yeah.

:

01:09:16,884 --> 01:09:17,453

Ryan: To kick!

:

01:09:18,033 --> 01:09:20,604

Final trivia fact to end on, I

don't know if you've talked about

:

01:09:20,604 --> 01:09:24,993

this, but the actress who played

Sarah Chambers is really tall.

:

01:09:25,134 --> 01:09:28,054

She's like, she's six foot,

or six foot one, and that was

:

01:09:28,054 --> 01:09:30,144

a problem for the production.

:

01:09:30,654 --> 01:09:33,363

Because I don't know if you're aware,

but in a lot of productions they don't

:

01:09:33,404 --> 01:09:35,323

like women being taller than the men.

:

01:09:36,514 --> 01:09:36,943

Laura: Yeah.

:

01:09:36,993 --> 01:09:37,993

I've heard that's a thing.

:

01:09:38,674 --> 01:09:40,884

Ryan: so if you go, back, if you go back

:

01:09:40,884 --> 01:09:45,724

and watch Crusade, enjoy how they had

to find ways of hiding her height.

:

01:09:46,134 --> 01:09:46,363

so

:

01:09:46,363 --> 01:09:51,964

that's why so often she's sitting down,

or in the back of the set, or crouching,

:

01:09:52,033 --> 01:09:54,604

or on the tv screen, or by herself.

:

01:09:55,734 --> 01:09:59,644

And it makes her character feel

like she's not in the world,

:

01:09:59,714 --> 01:10:01,594

she just exists inserted.

:

01:10:01,624 --> 01:10:02,654

Isn't that strange?

:

01:10:03,094 --> 01:10:06,554

I've never seen a production have

to do that before, but Crusade,

:

01:10:06,924 --> 01:10:10,774

like with every other weird thing

it has, it's a unique snowflake.

:

01:10:12,324 --> 01:10:16,104

Laura: See, Ja'far and I having met

in person and had our partners with

:

01:10:16,104 --> 01:10:17,984

us, Ja'far knows how much taller

:

01:10:17,984 --> 01:10:19,174

I am than my husband.

:

01:10:20,484 --> 01:10:21,394

Ryan: I've seen photos,

:

01:10:21,984 --> 01:10:25,430

I've seen photos, and I'm like, are

you really tall or is he really short?

:

01:10:25,430 --> 01:10:25,836

Um,

:

01:10:25,836 --> 01:10:26,648

so if,

:

01:10:26,774 --> 01:10:27,624

Laura: it's a little of both.

:

01:10:28,271 --> 01:10:29,083

Ryan: this show,

:

01:10:29,219 --> 01:10:30,149

Laura: He's not really short.

:

01:10:30,149 --> 01:10:30,529

He's very

:

01:10:30,559 --> 01:10:31,989

average, but I am very tall.

:

01:10:34,104 --> 01:10:34,494

Xhafer: Yup.

:

01:10:34,949 --> 01:10:35,879

Ryan: You'd be ha you'd have

:

01:10:35,879 --> 01:10:36,289

to sit.

:

01:10:37,099 --> 01:10:38,299

Sorry, you'd have to crouch.

:

01:10:38,299 --> 01:10:39,919

You'd have to be on the TV screen.

:

01:10:40,159 --> 01:10:42,749

Laura: But that's, this is

a real thing for me, Ryan.

:

01:10:42,779 --> 01:10:48,318

Like I feel a subconscious thing from

the world that I need to be smaller.

:

01:10:48,529 --> 01:10:49,839

And I hate that.

:

01:10:49,839 --> 01:10:53,309

And I hate that they did this

to beautiful Marjean Holden.

:

01:10:53,879 --> 01:10:54,739

That is so

:

01:10:55,674 --> 01:10:56,334

Xhafer: It's fucked.

:

01:10:56,384 --> 01:10:56,674

Just say

:

01:10:56,684 --> 01:10:56,874

it's

:

01:10:56,874 --> 01:10:57,334

fucked.

:

01:10:58,674 --> 01:11:00,174

We're an explicit podcast.

:

01:11:00,174 --> 01:11:04,598

Hahahaha

:

01:11:04,969 --> 01:11:05,779

Ryan: It's fucked.

:

01:11:07,964 --> 01:11:08,834

Laura: There's the title.

:

01:11:08,969 --> 01:11:09,239

Xhafer: it.

:

01:11:10,609 --> 01:11:11,089

All right.

:

01:11:11,109 --> 01:11:14,169

Well, with all that said, we've

just got a couple other things.

:

01:11:14,169 --> 01:11:16,599

Thanks, Jeremy, for

our lovely theme music.

:

01:11:17,109 --> 01:11:19,549

You can find more of Jeremy's

work at jeremyseagle42.

:

01:11:19,589 --> 01:11:20,209

bandcamp.

:

01:11:20,209 --> 01:11:22,479

com, and on streaming

services as Nuclear Jaguar.

:

01:11:22,927 --> 01:11:25,747

Laura: and thanks to Angry Duck Time

Machine on Instagram for our podcast

:

01:11:25,747 --> 01:11:26,227

artwork.

:

01:11:26,717 --> 01:11:30,047

Xhafer: Thanks, Aaron, for editing this

podcast, and thank you in anticipation

:

01:11:30,047 --> 01:11:32,897

for editing the script readings, which

is going to be a fucking nightmare.

:

01:11:35,044 --> 01:11:36,624

Laura: We'll, we'll keep it tight, man.

:

01:11:36,814 --> 01:11:37,714

We'll keep it tight.

:

01:11:37,954 --> 01:11:38,304

I believe

:

01:11:38,304 --> 01:11:38,404

in

:

01:11:38,564 --> 01:11:39,124

Xhafer: Can we?

:

01:11:39,514 --> 01:11:40,344

We'll find out!

:

01:11:41,811 --> 01:11:43,991

Laura: And thanks, listener,

for being here with us.

:

01:11:44,156 --> 01:11:48,006

If you want to reach out and share

any thoughts on Crusade, I know

:

01:11:48,006 --> 01:11:52,199

you've got them uh, you can send

an email to whoareyoub5 at gmail.

:

01:11:52,199 --> 01:11:53,999

com or join us in our Discord.

:

01:11:53,999 --> 01:11:55,579

It's a great, lovely group of people.

:

01:11:55,579 --> 01:11:56,209

And Ryan is

:

01:11:56,404 --> 01:12:00,914

Xhafer: yeah, we'd love to hear what

Babylon 5 as a whole series means to

:

01:12:00,914 --> 01:12:04,644

you for our series recap, so shoot

us an email or a discord message with

:

01:12:04,644 --> 01:12:09,657

that, and we'll read that when we

do that in a month and a half or so.

:

01:12:09,859 --> 01:12:12,579

Ryan: Yeah, and feel free

to argue which is worse.

:

01:12:12,689 --> 01:12:16,499

Crusade, Legend of the

Rangers, or The Lost Tales?

:

01:12:16,719 --> 01:12:19,999

There's only one correct

answer, and it's mine.

:

01:12:20,449 --> 01:12:21,209

Which is The Lost

:

01:12:21,304 --> 01:12:25,394

Xhafer: I I haven't seen Lost Tales

in a long time, and I honestly

:

01:12:25,394 --> 01:12:26,714

think I'm going to agree with you.

:

01:12:27,124 --> 01:12:30,930

I haven't done my rewatch for

this yet, but I do believe I'm

:

01:12:30,930 --> 01:12:32,130

gonna think it's the worst thing.

:

01:12:32,130 --> 01:12:34,920

I was talking about this the

other day, it feels like it's

:

01:12:34,930 --> 01:12:37,870

just green screen sometimes.

:

01:12:38,295 --> 01:12:41,805

Laura: I remember profound disappointment

when it came out in college.

:

01:12:41,835 --> 01:12:43,555

That's the only thing I remember about it.

:

01:12:43,575 --> 01:12:45,635

I remember Sheridan's in it at one point.

:

01:12:46,215 --> 01:12:48,305

And profound disappointment.

:

01:12:48,309 --> 01:12:49,300

Xhafer: Sheridan and Galen.

:

01:12:49,777 --> 01:12:50,057

Laura: Yeah.

:

01:12:50,057 --> 01:12:51,947

Apparently I don't

remember the Galen part at

:

01:12:51,947 --> 01:12:52,347

all.

:

01:12:52,977 --> 01:12:55,517

Ryan: And the Locke and Lockley,

and Lockley's there too.

:

01:12:58,287 --> 01:12:58,537

Laura: Cool.

:

01:12:58,562 --> 01:12:59,022

Xhafer: Alright.

:

01:12:59,192 --> 01:13:00,602

Well, we'll see you next week, Internet.

:

01:13:00,790 --> 01:13:01,320

Laura: Bye.

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About the Podcast

Who Are You?
A Babylon 5 Watchcast
Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.