Episode 144

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Published on:

2nd Oct 2024

Crusade 12 - B Plot Disguised as an A Plot

Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers, as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Laura and Xhafer wonder if any Crusade watch order makes sense. Meanwhile, Matheson gets an evaluation and Galen leads the Excalibur on a hyperspace adventure in Crusade: Episode 3 - The Well of Forever.

Transcript
Xhafer:

Hello and welcome to Who Are You?

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This is the podcast hosted by two

former strangers, but now friends,

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who've gotten to know each other

while rewatching a favorite show

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from their childhood, Babylon 5.

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I'm Jaffer,

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Laura: And I'm Laura.

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Xhafer: and Laura, you had

something you wanted to talk

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about

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Laura: a thought last night.

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I'm, I'm currently synthesizing

a bunch of information, right?

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Um, like, yes, yes.

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Xhafer: I mean, there

was just about something

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Laura: no, no, no, no.

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This is school is making me synthesize

a lot of things and I'm not able to

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like partition that out and be like,

I am synthesizing only for school.

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Like my brain like branches out

into the other things I'm doing.

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Right.

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and so one of the things that we've

been doing in my judgment and decision

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making course is reading a whole bunch

of papers about like experimental

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accounting research, which sounds like.

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Made up,

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Xhafer: For sure.

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Laura: but it's basically taking like

some psychological experiments and

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applying them to the accounting setting.

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Right.

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Xhafer: Okay.

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Laura: idea is that, you know,

the accounting professional is a

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bit of a specific kind of person.

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So let's take these like psychological

concepts and apply them to that

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professional setting and see like, does

the concept hold, is there something

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that's mediating it, changing it?

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Like Is the professional

different, or does it react to

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standard human things sometimes?

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So, one of the papers that I read recently

was very interesting, and it was about

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audit professionals in particular.

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And so the audit profession is like,

you know, you're digging through

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to make sure somebody's numbers

are right, basically, generally.

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Xhafer: Actually, I spend a lot

of my day working with audit

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Laura: yeah, yeah,

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Xhafer: I make reports for audit teams

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Laura: it's a, that's a very

generalized description for the,

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the lay person in the audience.

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But, one of the things that this paper

studied about auditors was does the order

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of, that the information is presented to

you affect the outcome of your decision?

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Xhafer: Okay.

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Laura: So,

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Xhafer: I see where this is going.

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Laura: So I got to thinking as we were

watching Crusade last night, that there is

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no good order presentation of this show.

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Like, there is no agreed upon,

this is the way to watch Crusade.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Laura: So I'm wondering, does that

concept, like, Sort of apply in the, like,

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you know, there's not going to be a good

perception of Crusade because there's

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no right way to watch the damn thing.

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Xhafer: in other things, bleeding

over into other things, I have, I

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have just started listening to a

podcast Called God, what was it?

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I'd like to stop watching fight club

and it's comedian Jacob Wysocki who's

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part of the dropout crew and he watches

fight club for 72 hours straight and

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Watches it with different people every

time he like lined up a bunch of people

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who and like records episode of the

podcast as this Is going and it's like

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wanted to descent into madness, right?

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But also it's like people experiencing

him at different times of this

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process also watching the same

thing over and over and over again.

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And I thought, man, if

I was like a sadist,

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Laura: I see where this is going.

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Xhafer: I think it'd be interesting to

do like four or five crusade rewatches in

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a row in all of these different orders.

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See if anything makes it make

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Laura: And record your

own descent into madness.

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Xhafer: See, and this is

why we're not doing that.

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Laura: Yeah, yeah.

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That's a psychological experiment.

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Yeah, no, so for uh, psychological

experiments these days, you have to

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pass, like, a, a review board before

you can do your experiment to make

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sure that it's not, like, harmful.

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Not sure that one's gonna pass, Ja'far.

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Xhafer: I don't think that one would pass.

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No, I don't think any, any accredited

board would in their right mind, allow

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someone to do that to themselves.

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Laura: Oh, so,

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Xhafer: See if a rat survives

at first and then maybe we

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can move on to human testing.

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Laura: Yeah.

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No fight club.

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That's an interesting one to choose.

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I think I've watched the movie

maybe once I did read the book.

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But I don't remember there being

like a lot of significant difference

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between the book and the movie.

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Xhafer: I have not read the book.

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Laura: It's, I mean, it's whatever.

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Xhafer: I have not read

any Chuck Palahniuk.

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Laura: Pelliniac?

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Uh, Yeah.

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I'm not sure how you say it.

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I've read a

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Xhafer: I, I'm, I'm

pulling it from the ether.

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I don't even know how it's spelled.

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I've not read any of his work because

everyone I know that was really into his

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Laura: Mm hmm.

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Xhafer: You know how sometimes someone

tells you their favorite book and you can

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get an idea of what kind of person they

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Laura: Yeah.

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Uh Huh.

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Ayn Rand.

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Xhafer: Yeah, anyone who's favorite

book was Chuck whatever, P whatever.

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It was not someone I

was interested in being.

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Laura: Yeah, I think a lot of

people totally missed the point.

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We're gonna call him Chuckie P.

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Of Chuckie P's work, like, I think a lot

of people who, like, really loved Fight

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Club, it also just, like, went right over.

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Xhafer: They didn't

catch that it was satire.

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Laura: Yeah, and that

actually, like, he's bad.

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Xhafer: Like, people who unironically

love the Starship Troopers movie

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without realizing that it's anti war

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Laura: Uh huh.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Or people who are really into Warhammer

40k without realizing that it's a

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critique of how terrible fascism is.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Exactly.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Laura: I don't know what perception

you would get of somebody

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who's like a fan of Crusade.

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Cause I don't know that

that person exists.

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I don't know that I've ever heard someone

be like, man, that show was robbed.

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Yeah,

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Xhafer: I mean, I think anyone

who feels this show was robbed is

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dreaming of better Babble on five.

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You know, coming into its

own and getting a chance.

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A lot of it's, I think it's a lot

of the same stuff with the people

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who are really into Firefly,

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Laura: yeah.

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Xhafer: where it's all like, you don't

necessarily miss what Firefly was,

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you miss what Firefly could have been.

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And it's a lot easier for a show to

be great when it only exists in your

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mind than it is when it actually is

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Laura: Right.

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Right.

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That show also was only

like 13 episodes, wasn't it?

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That made it out into the world.

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Xhafer: Ah, I think it's even less.

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I think it was like eight.

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I

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Laura: Yeah, it wasn't it.

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It

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Xhafer: don't remember.

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It was one a lot.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it got done dirty.

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But also, you know.

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scumbag,

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Laura: Yeah.

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I mean, I, now that we know what

we know about this creator, I'm

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like, I can't, I don't know, like,

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Xhafer: Yeah,

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Laura: yeah, it's rough.

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Don't have

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Xhafer: yeah.

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yeah.

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A bunch of stuff just came

out about Neil Gaiman.

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Like, more stuff.

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Laura: And uh, some, someone in

one of our FOD communities had some

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personal things to say about that,

that they, they were affected by.

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So I was like, well, I give it credence

because someone I actually know uh,

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Xhafer: I was unaware of

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Laura: has a informed opinion.

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So.

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Xhafer: yeah.

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I mean, I will always side,

especially before things are settled.

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I think it is proper to, you know, if

someone is a victim, you believe them.

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until proven otherwise,

but it's at the same time.

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It's just like, man, it's

just don't have heroes.

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You're a hundred percent right.

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Like, or at the very

least don't meet them.

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And I think that was a lot

easier in the pre internet age.

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I don't think anything

with celebrity has changed.

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Um, since the era of, you know,

Oh, don't meet your heroes.

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You'll hate it.

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You know, 30 years ago, 40

years ago, you'd meet your

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hero and they were scumbag.

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And now in the age of everyone

being able to talk to everyone,

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they were always all scumbags.

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It's almost like celebrity is a

terrible thing to foist upon someone.

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Not to victimize people who are shitbags

and who make victims of other people.

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But it's not something that humans can

deal with particularly well, clearly

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given how many, I mean, Dave Groll,

all that stuff just dropped too.

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Um, it's just like, there is no such

thing as a, a good famous person.

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Laura: Yeah.

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It's, it's sort of like the parallel

we're seeing with law enforcement

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is that people just weren't looking

because they couldn't look and now we

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can all see each other all the time if

we want and uh, you're not behaving.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Is it now, is it that power corrupts?

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Is it that people who.

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Want, who are able to achieve

these things, have to have a set of

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morals that allows them to do that.

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So they're already shitty people

before they become famous?

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Is it both?

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I'm sure, I'm sure for some people it's

one and for some people it's the other.

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you

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Laura: There's, like, a

psychology paper there.

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If I can just apply it to an accounting

setting, maybe I have my first year paper.

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Xhafer: right.

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Some forensic accounting

on how terrible people are.

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I believe in you.

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Laura: Well, what I don't

believe in is this show.

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I hate to say it.

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Xhafer: The well of this show

is running on for forever.

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You know, this is tied on IMDb

for the worst episode of the

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Laura: is it really?

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Which one is it tied with?

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I'm very

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Xhafer: The next one we're watching.

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Laura: no, we didn't feel good

about the last one we watched.

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Xhafer: We're so close, Laura.

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We're so close.

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There's two.

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This is this one.

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There's one more.

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That

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Laura: do you think JMS put them

in this order in his preferred

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order because he was hoping people

would give up before they got here?

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Xhafer: might be the only thing

about this viewing order that makes

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Laura: Serious question, yeah.

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Yeah, oh my.

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Yeah, there was so much potential.

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I remember at the end of our last episode,

I was like, ooh, Psycorps guy coming back.

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We're gonna get some more telepath stuff.

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What a letdown.

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Xhafer: I,

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I really have to wonder if what continuity

errors, this particular viewing error

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order could have actually resolved,

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Laura: Yeah, I don't

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Xhafer: like, it just feels like

it's making things worse constantly.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Was there a big error in this one?

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Xhafer: Um, no,

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Laura: that were like, oh, oh

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Xhafer: one because that we had a

flashback to this episode, like 10

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episodes ago for the next one, cause

it's them going to Babylon five to

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meet with the drossy ambassador.

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Laura: yes, yes, yes.

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Hmm.

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Hmm.

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Xhafer: don't know.

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Laura: Okie dokie.

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Well, We open on a Psycorps

shuttle coming in on Excalibur.

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And uh, that's kind of exciting.

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Like whenever Babylon 5 would open

with Psycorps, it's like, Oh, this

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is going to be a good episode.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Laura: maybe that ramp up

is what the big letdown is.

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I don't know.

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Xhafer: yeah, we see the Cycor branded

shuttle, but learned that this is

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actually the Bureau of telepathic.

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Investigation,

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the BTI.

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So it is separate.

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Psycorps was disbanded by the Senate

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Laura: Right.

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Xhafer: and they just kept the

logo, but changed the background.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Like, we're not going to repaint

all these ships, like, come

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Xhafer: It's so much work, right?

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Everyone's already got the pins.

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Just, you know, send everyone

some tin snips and have them cut

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off the back and we'll be fine.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Matheson fills us in, and Gideon as

well, on what's, what's the deal.

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So he has to be inspected every

so often, and I guess his last

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inspection was six months ago.

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Um, but all free telepaths have to submit

to an inquisitor kind of situation.

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Mm hmm.

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To make sure they're

not breaking the rules.

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They get deep scanned to make sure

they haven't been scanning others.

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Xhafer: We have heard nothing but terrible

things about how a deep scan works.

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Laura: Mm hmm.

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Xhafer: One time we've seen another

telepath get deep scanned in

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this show, it was one of the most

traumatic experiences directly.

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Compared to rape like it is terrible

and I don't want to say that like

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I'm not trying to comment on any of

the characters here because I don't

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think this is a difference of the

characters between Talia and Matheson.

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I don't think Matheson is just

so much more resilient than Talia

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or something, but it's like.

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So not a thing in this episode

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Laura: Yeah.

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He's really stoic about it.

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Yeah.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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And it's just like, he's not,

he's not pleased about it.

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And he looks like messed up afterwards.

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You know, he's not happy about it,

but he's also not, it's not the same.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Xhafer: And I don't know

if that's continuity.

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Or if it's not as bad of a deep scan,

if like, maybe because like besters

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over here running around with his

P12 ass, that deep scan hurts more

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because he's a more powerful telepath.

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And if they had like a P6

running around doing this

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stuff, I don't, I don't know if that's

how it works, but I am now making excuses

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for a show that could have had a line that

explained it, and that's one of my rules.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You could believe that Bester

is not like lubing that up or

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whatever to make it easier.

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But

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still.

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Xhafer: Laura.

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Oh, Oh, Oh.

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Laura: We can cut that if we need to.

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Ja'far's making a very bad face.

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Xhafer: It's,

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I'll put it in Aaron's hands.

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Um, yeah, so, uh, this, the

guy coming to do this is Mr.

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Jones,

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Laura: They're all Mr.

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Jones.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Laura: They have anonymity

to protect them a little bit.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Laura: Don't love that.

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Xhafer: that's a choice.

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I get it, but at the

same time it's just like,

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Laura: I

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Xhafer: what purpose does this serve

besides being lazy about writing?

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I

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Laura: Don't feel good about it.

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But we cut to Galen bringing his Himalayan

salt lamp to the, to the meeting.

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And

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Xhafer: called it a mood rock.

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Laura: It reminded me of

the egg thing that Dr.

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Franklin gave the very sick

child early on in Babylon 5.

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Xhafer: Wouldn't it be funny if that

was a Technomage device the whole

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Laura: Yeah, what'd he call it?

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He called it like industrial goo or

something, just like a byproduct.

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But yeah, this, this one knows the

location of the well of forever.

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Yeah,

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Xhafer: projection up of the

worst butt plug ever designed.

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It's actually a hyperspace

map to hyperspace Stonehenge.

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Laura: He wants to go there.

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He thinks there could be some

sort of lead or something.

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It's sort of

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Xhafer: There's a, there's a thing there.

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It's a place of power.

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There might be a thing

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Laura: Yeah, I was way more

distracted by Darina butting in

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and saying that her people were not

comfortable with a variety, a list

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of things, and that included cliffs.

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And we just saw her.

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Scaling a cliff in the last episode

where her people were on top of it.

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Xhafer: Yeah,

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Laura: Like, okay.

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Xhafer: the, the, the Lost Tribe,

their word, didn't get that memo.

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Laura: I guess

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Xhafer: Yeah, there's some babble

about what a bad idea this is

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uh, but Galen can't go himself.

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He needs the Excaliburs.

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Engines, I'm guessing, something.

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It wasn't, it wasn't particularly clear.

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They said the words, listener, they

said, they said words that were

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in English and should make sense,

but it didn't really make sense.

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It's like.

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Galen ship can navigate there, but it

can't traverse the gravity wells, despite

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his ship being faster and more powerful

than most other ships, despite its size.

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And it's just

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Laura: There was a lot of talk about like,

Oh, we want to find out more about Galen's

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really magic ship, but it's like, okay.

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So he needed you guys.

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Why?

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Like they, they said something

about, yes, that my ship's not strong

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enough to fight the gravity waves

or whatever, but it's like, okay.

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Okay, so is it magic or not?

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Yeah, they

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Xhafer: it's, it's for plot.

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Laura: they argue whether or not

they should trust the magic rock, and

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ultimately decide like, okay, we'll

trust Galen and, and do this thing.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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He says, others have found it

but never returned to theme.

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Laura: Yeah, okay.

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Xhafer: Yo, like, how's that possible?

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Knowing, knowing what it is at the end

of the episode, that's just a lie, right?

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Laura: Yeah,

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Xhafer: Like, people aren't

going there to bury themselves.

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So,

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Laura: yeah, and how would you know if

they had found it if they never returned?

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Xhafer: yeah.

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Laura: being.

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a cryptic douche.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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This theme, man.

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Only one more episode of this theme.

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I take back everything bad I ever said

about season 5, Babylon 5's theme.

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Laura: it's not this.

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Xhafer: It's

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Laura: There's at least some charm there.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Laura: Galen performs his navigational

merge to merge the control of

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his ship with the Excalibur.

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So he is able to control

Excalibur from his own ship.

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and Gideon and Matheson talk a little

bit about, hey, maybe we can figure out

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some more stuff about his technology

just by being hooked up, you know, keep,

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keep the scans open, that kind of thing.

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Xhafer: Yeah, do some plotting.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Darina plays poker with Gideon.

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Uh, Ja'far, did you

notice more weird cards?

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Xhafer: More weird cards.

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Sure did.

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At least these are like, this

is a standard deck of playing

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cards, but they're weird shaped.

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Love it.

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Laura: hmm.

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Xhafer: I recently started

playing uh, Boletro.

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Which is a solitaire poker game,

415

:

Laura: Oh, okay.

416

:

Xhafer: and I want more

weird shaped cards than that.

417

:

I would love a mod that makes them weird

shaped cards from various sci fi games.

418

:

It'd fit in with the game so

419

:

Laura: Yeah.

420

:

Hell yeah, let's do it.

421

:

she expresses that she mistrusts

Galen's premise a little bit.

422

:

She doesn't think that

He's being totally honest.

423

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

424

:

Laura: And she cheats at cards.

425

:

They have a

426

:

Xhafer: Shichi's so good at cards.

427

:

Laura: Hehehehe.

428

:

Well, rogue.

429

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

430

:

He's like, I just threw out that card.

431

:

Fuck you.

432

:

And checks the pile and

it's different cards.

433

:

It's so good.

434

:

Laura: Yeah, she does

ask about Matheson too.

435

:

She's a little worried about Mr.

436

:

Jones as well.

437

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

438

:

Laura: perceptive.

439

:

Xhafer: Yeah Mr.

440

:

Jones explains why Matheson is under

more scrutiny since he's one of the

441

:

first telepaths to actually have a

chance of being a queer military person.

442

:

And we know that that is a

common dream denied to telepaths,

443

:

Laura: Mm hmm.

444

:

Xhafer: In the previous world.

445

:

We, we've encountered a number of

people who, a number of telepaths who

446

:

were doing their thing because they

weren't allowed to be queer military.

447

:

Laura: hmm.

448

:

Hey, do we know if they know

about the thing that the Lady of

449

:

the Bondwater forgave him for?

450

:

Xhafer: If he's getting

deep scanned like this they

451

:

Laura: they know, right?

452

:

Xhafer: yeah,

453

:

Laura: I would think that's a good reason

to be extra suspicious of Matheson, too.

454

:

I don't

455

:

Xhafer: a good

456

:

call

457

:

Laura: How does

458

:

Xhafer: Well, they might not care.

459

:

Laura: like, because Sycor's gone.

460

:

I don't know.

461

:

It would have been nice if

that came up, is all I'm

462

:

Xhafer: he technically saved

a bunch of telepaths from

463

:

getting killed from a terrorist

464

:

attack Like if you look at it from a

he knew perspective and you weren't

465

:

mad at him for not telling psych

or He was piloting a shuttle with

466

:

a bunch of people out of there.

467

:

Laura: Yeah.

468

:

I don't know.

469

:

Well, it would have been nice if

that had been mentioned at all,

470

:

or alluded to, or something.

471

:

Xhafer: yeah,

472

:

Laura: Or like, he's like,

worried about keeping that secret.

473

:

I don't know.

474

:

Xhafer: yeah He's Like, hey, you've

done some passive emotional scans

475

:

and done these things, so that's

a no no, you're gonna get fired

476

:

now.

477

:

Laura: and he found out about the well

of forever, which is annoying, like he's

478

:

not supposed to get into the duty related

information, but he says, well, I'm here

479

:

and I'm worried about my own safety.

480

:

So it's fine.

481

:

Xhafer: Yeah, well, they

shouldn't take him on this fuckin

482

:

Laura: Yeah, I think it should have

been like, well, we got to wait till Mr.

483

:

Jones disembarks before we

go to the well of forever

484

:

like

485

:

Xhafer: Or tell Mr.

486

:

Jones to fuck off for two days.

487

:

You're on the most important

mission in human history.

488

:

Laura: Like, I don't know.

489

:

Um, but yeah, he likes

to threaten Mathison here.

490

:

Galen goes to see Darina and he

remarks that her quarters are smaller.

491

:

Xhafer: Well, it's not that they're

smaller, it's that she only shops

492

:

in the children's section of IKEA,

493

:

so all of her furniture is

494

:

Laura: Gotcha, gotcha.

495

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

496

:

Laura: But she just is straight up.

497

:

She's like, tell me why you won't tell

us what the Well of Forever really is.

498

:

And of course, he's not able to.

499

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

500

:

He doesn't they talk big, serious.

501

:

He's like, you know, what

question unlocks your heart?

502

:

He says, why she says,

because she's curious.

503

:

And it turns into this giant variation

of who's on first, that takes up the

504

:

rest of the episode and that's it.

505

:

So on a scale of one to

four main guns firing.

506

:

Uh, How'd you feel about this one?

507

:

God, I would, I would be so proud

of the bravery of a show to do that.

508

:

To literally just do a 30

minute vaudeville bit here

509

:

at this point of the episode.

510

:

Can you imagine?

511

:

Laura: cares, obviously, at this

point in filming or writing.

512

:

So like, why not just make it a big bit?

513

:

Let's do a whole bit.

514

:

Xhafer: live in the space, man.

515

:

Just enjoy it.

516

:

Chew the scenery.

517

:

Laura: So,

518

:

Xhafer: Matheson had his shitty

time during his exam, and they

519

:

find space jellyfish to commercial.

520

:

Laura: Scanners have picked

up these big space jellyfish.

521

:

I wanted a payoff here.

522

:

I got one.

523

:

When we come back from commercial

you know, Iverson is doing

524

:

his corporate man thing.

525

:

He wants to send out cams.

526

:

Um, Gideon's like, eh.

527

:

These things are barely sentient and

they're attracted to bright, shiny stuff.

528

:

So turn off the lights, turn off the

engines, let's just float through.

529

:

But one of the jellyfish, like hyperspace

jellyfish, this is not even just like

530

:

space jellyfish, like grabs a hold

of the ship and decides to hump it.

531

:

Xhafer: Yeah, it's something it's like.

532

:

Man, this is way different than

in Star Trek where they turn

533

:

into a space station to help you.

534

:

Laura: I was like, didn't this

happen in an episode of Voyager

535

:

or something kind of like it?

536

:

I feel like there was some space

thing that was using Voyager to mate.

537

:

I forget.

538

:

I don't know.

539

:

If you remember it,

throw it in the discord.

540

:

Xhafer: that sounds right.

541

:

I think that was an episode of something.

542

:

Laura: It was funny because Owen

was actually sitting with us when

543

:

we watched this crusade and yeah.

544

:

I had a good chuckle.

545

:

They kept it vague enough that I didn't

have to explain anything to my son.

546

:

So I appreciate that.

547

:

Xhafer: Yeah, don't want to have that talk

548

:

yet.

549

:

Laura: Yeah.

550

:

Thanks crusade.

551

:

Like,

552

:

Xhafer: Gideon and Galen,

553

:

Laura: expresses doubt

about this whole course.

554

:

He's like, what the fuck, man?

555

:

You just let, let my

ship get like violated.

556

:

but Darina defends Galen as

he's eardropping through his

557

:

AirPods on the whole thing.

558

:

Xhafer: Go on for a while.

559

:

This is like five scenes.

560

:

It's like four or five minutes of Gideon

being pissed at Galen about taking

561

:

control of the ship without asking

when he tells him it's time to turn

562

:

Laura: yeah, and uh, Galen's like,

actually, no, I'm not going to do that.

563

:

Xhafer: it's just go fuck yourself.

564

:

Uh, It is, this is, this

is so fucking pointless.

565

:

This is such a waste of time in this

566

:

Laura: Yeah, they like, get to the

coordinates, but there's nothing

567

:

there, and Galen's like, well, it's

probably drifted a little bit, so I'm

568

:

just gonna look around for a while.

569

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

570

:

Laura: Thanks.

571

:

Xhafer: Like what happens here has no

impact on the rest of this episode because

572

:

Gideon is pissed about the thing, right?

573

:

But he's more pissed later about it.

574

:

Not him not being honest about

what it was in the first place.

575

:

Laura: hmm.

576

:

Xhafer: And that completely

overrides his being pissed about

577

:

taking control of the ship.

578

:

Laura: Yeah.

579

:

Xhafer: he could just be pissed

about him not being honest

580

:

with him in the first place.

581

:

And that is more emotionally

resonating for the character.

582

:

Laura: And basically at the end also

he's like, Well, you're so valuable,

583

:

I'm gonna let it pass this time.

584

:

And it's like, well, okay, then

why, why are you even Pissed.

585

:

Like, I don't, I don't get it.

586

:

Um, Gideon does say like, you know,

after this, the way you've broken

587

:

my trust, you're going to be alone.

588

:

And Galen's like, well, not for the

first time and pouts away dramatically.

589

:

And I'm just like, Oh, I don't need to

see two pouty boys being pouty at each

590

:

other for five minutes or whatever.

591

:

Like you said.

592

:

Xhafer: Uh, Mr.

593

:

Jones talks to Gideon about

how Madison's best isn't good

594

:

enough and he calls bullshit!

595

:

Laura: Yeah.

596

:

And again, like Jones doesn't

feel that threatening.

597

:

Like he's no bester.

598

:

I'm just like, okay,

this is, I don't know.

599

:

Xhafer: Gideon throws in the towel on

trying to regain control of the ship.

600

:

Madison regrets that his psi abilities

Make him unable to go into hyperspace

601

:

because the shielding isn't there.

602

:

That would prevent it from

affecting his mind, which means

603

:

he's going to accidentally read

everyone when he shouldn't.

604

:

So he can't go into hyperspace alone

either because that's dangerous.

605

:

So he just never gets to

experience the thing, it seems.

606

:

Laura: this was a weird

thing to shoehorn in there.

607

:

Xhafer: We already know that

hyperspace enhances Psy.

608

:

We know he's not supposed

to scan people, right?

609

:

And he can't go alone, that makes sense.

610

:

Now, we break two of these

three rules in 15 minutes.

611

:

What's the f ugh.

612

:

This entire B plot could be

removed from this episode.

613

:

Laura: Yeah.

614

:

Xhafer: And it would change nothing.

615

:

Laura: And it should have been almost two

separate episodes because then you could

616

:

maybe make the telepaths more interesting.

617

:

And I don't know, the Well of Forever

is just not interesting at all to me.

618

:

Xhafer: It's a B plot.

619

:

It's a B plot disguised as an A plot.

620

:

Laura: It's a, it's a B plot wearing

A plot shoes and it doesn't fit them.

621

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

622

:

Like if this were an episode

of Babylon five, the A plot and

623

:

the B plot would be reversed.

624

:

It would be a handful of people

from the department of psionic

625

:

investigation or whatever's showing up.

626

:

They would be more of

a problem on the ship.

627

:

The fact that they were in hyperspace

so long would amplify their psychic

628

:

abilities like they talk about.

629

:

And that would be the problem.

630

:

And this stuff with Gideon, keeping

them in hyperspace would be the B plot.

631

:

Laura: Yeah.

632

:

Xhafer: And way less

attention will be paid to it.

633

:

Rightfully so.

634

:

Laura: I was, I did not have a good time.

635

:

Uh,

636

:

Xhafer: ending was fine with the, with

the Gideon plot or the Galen plot,

637

:

but fucking yeah, God, why are they,

why'd they make their name so similar?

638

:

Laura: was thinking the same thing,

writing notes for this episode.

639

:

I was like, fuck this.

640

:

Like, what is your problem?

641

:

JMS that like he had his Sheridan and

Sinclair that was hard in Babylon five.

642

:

And now we've got Gideon and Galen.

643

:

I think we have Gideon and Galen

cause he did not give a shit.

644

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

645

:

Laura: I think that's where

we're at, but yeah, so,

646

:

Xhafer: Tweet at us, Joe, tell us why

you did this thing, why you did this

647

:

terrible, terrible thing to us, to

podcasters 20 years after the show aired.

648

:

Why?

649

:

Laura: So we've got something

on scanners, too commercial.

650

:

It's the well of forever.

651

:

We find out it has an atmosphere

bubble when we get back and

652

:

Galen has already disappeared.

653

:

He's gonzo.

654

:

Xhafer: it takes so much time to get

to that docking bay where his ship is,

655

:

his ship is wired into the Excalibur

656

:

already.

657

:

They talk about how they can't separate

it and all this stuff and somehow in like

658

:

five seconds, he goes from the bridge.

659

:

To the back of the ship where the

docking bay is, he like, takes the

660

:

mile, two mile tram, disconnects his

661

:

ship,

662

:

Laura: he didn't take the tram.

663

:

Jair.

664

:

He's techno mage.

665

:

He's got like mini

transporter or something.

666

:

Like

667

:

Xhafer: I'm sure, it's just,

668

:

Laura: He only rides the tram when he's

wanting to run into somebody on purpose.

669

:

Xhafer: yeah,

670

:

Laura: Mm-Hmm.

671

:

yeah.

672

:

Gideon goes after him and Ierson tries

to do his whole, I'm coming to thing

673

:

and gets ordered to be tossed in the

Bri if he tries to leave the bridge.

674

:

Xhafer: Galen lands on the most

well lit industrial club in history,

675

:

Laura: Yeah.

676

:

Xhafer: the fog machines here are

really working overtime, as Max

677

:

convinces Matheson to do a little

surface scanning to just, you know,

678

:

let them know what's going on down

there, just, just helping them out

679

:

and is salivating at the

natural resources of this place.

680

:

And it's like, bro, this all has

to be easier to get somewhere else.

681

:

Literally no other ship can get here.

682

:

You know,

683

:

Laura: Yeah.

684

:

Xhafer: And it's hyperspace.

685

:

So shit moves like, it's not

even like you can just take the

686

:

coordinates and send it back to IPX.

687

:

So they can haul this somewhere

688

:

Laura: Yeah.

689

:

Which is what he does try

to do ultimately, but it's

690

:

like, no, no, it's not

691

:

Xhafer: We know that's

not how hyperspace works.

692

:

It's just like, you're

telling me you haven't found a

693

:

planet made out of solid gold

694

:

Laura: Yeah.

695

:

Xhafer: Should exist.

696

:

Just it's the universe is infinite.

697

:

You'll fucking find it.

698

:

Eventually.

699

:

Laura: is like the British

museum personified.

700

:

Like he wants this dead people shit.

701

:

Like gotta have it.

702

:

Xhafer: Gots to have all this dead people.

703

:

Shit.

704

:

Laura: Yeah.

705

:

Doreen is not fooled though.

706

:

She's like, see all the gravestones

This is like people's burial tombs,

707

:

you know, this is great civilizations

or civilization that has died here.

708

:

Like, let me introduce you to booby traps.

709

:

Gideon confronts Galen.

710

:

Who tells him about Isabel, who we sort

of met, but she was, I couldn't care less.

711

:

He monologues with terrible

CGI in the background.

712

:

That was very distracting for me.

713

:

And for some reason she spent

her life searching for the well.

714

:

So when she died, he had to

do it, put her to rest there.

715

:

Xhafer: Yeah,

716

:

Laura: That's it.

717

:

That's the only reason we're here.

718

:

We're not actually here for

like, maybe there's some

719

:

technology here that's useful.

720

:

Xhafer: they don't even check.

721

:

Laura: They don't even

722

:

Xhafer: Why would you?

723

:

Is that even a line of

lip service paid to?

724

:

Well, we scan the surface and there

doesn't appear to be any technology

725

:

that could be useful to us.

726

:

Laura: Why would we do that, Ja'far?

727

:

Like,

728

:

Xhafer: That would imply that you cared.

729

:

Laura: yeah.

730

:

Xhafer: Max is upset when they

turn the ship around to go

731

:

home, but nobody gives a fuck.

732

:

Gideon gets Doreena to scare Mr.

733

:

Jones and it works, and

Gideon saves Matheson from Mr.

734

:

Jones with Doreena's assistance.

735

:

Laura: I'm not sure why this works.

736

:

Xhafer: Yeah, I don't.

737

:

It was like she was shouting

into his mind, right?

738

:

Laura: but

739

:

Xhafer: That's like the

thing that you can't help.

740

:

They say that all the time.

741

:

Laura: so he's going to

blackmail him with that.

742

:

How, like, I don't get it.

743

:

Xhafer: Yeah, but

744

:

Laura: Hmm.

745

:

Xhafer: he uh, besides saving

Matheson's job, he also gets his

746

:

old Psycorp Eva suit, which I guess

does have the psychic shielding,

747

:

so he can go experience Ma I It's, it's

Psycorp labeled, so I would assume so.

748

:

Laura: Oh, okay.

749

:

Xhafer: suit itself has all

the Psycorps symbols on it.

750

:

Laura: Oh, I thought he was

just sending him out there.

751

:

Just like, go do it anyway, bro.

752

:

Like.

753

:

It's all

754

:

Xhafer: well, he, that's

what he should do.

755

:

Just tether yourself and you

could just be out there alone.

756

:

It's fine.

757

:

Laura: Yeah,

758

:

Xhafer: Whatever.

759

:

Laura: is weird.

760

:

I don't, I don't know.

761

:

I, I didn't enjoy any of it.

762

:

So,

763

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

764

:

Laura: uh, Yeah, so we're going

to go, Galen's going to go talk

765

:

to Gideon in the gym, like bros.

766

:

Xhafer: Yep.

767

:

Just bros being bros.

768

:

They work their shit out

without having to box about it.

769

:

So I guess that's a blessing.

770

:

Laura: I don't know.

771

:

I might've had a chuckle at that at least.

772

:

Gideon's just like on the exercise

bike or the elliptical or whatever.

773

:

And

774

:

okay.

775

:

Um, Yeah, Gideon tells him that Galen's

importance to the mission weighs out

776

:

this event and Galen promises, I'm

never going to betray your trust again.

777

:

And I'm

778

:

like, okay, well, don't understand

why you did any of this.

779

:

But,

780

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

781

:

Laura: Darina confronts Galen

about the answers he had promised.

782

:

he tells her that Eilersen got his

answer, which is that there is a

783

:

place that he cannot have, a thing

that he cannot have in this universe.

784

:

Gideon didn't hear his

answer on the surface.

785

:

Matheson couldn't get his answer

because he didn't go to the surface.

786

:

And he answers Darina's question

by addressing her eavesdropping.

787

:

So why couldn't Matheson get an answer?

788

:

Because Eilerson didn't go to

the surface and got an answer.

789

:

Darina didn't go to the

surface and got an answer.

790

:

But Matheson didn't go,

so he doesn't get one.

791

:

Xhafer: Nope.

792

:

Laura: The space block isn't his answer?

793

:

I don't know.

794

:

I'm just like

795

:

Xhafer: I would think the

spacewalk would be his answer.

796

:

Laura: But Galen's gonna have to wait a

little longer for his answer to credits.

797

:

Xhafer: Yeah.

798

:

Laura: Okay.

799

:

Xhafer: Ugh.

800

:

Okay.

801

:

We did it.

802

:

We got through the episode.

803

:

Okay.

804

:

Well.

805

:

I don't even want to bother rating this

806

:

Laura: I don't know why I can't

muster a care about these.

807

:

Like, they've

808

:

Xhafer: These last couple

episodes have been so bad.

809

:

Laura: they're still like apocalypse

box for me to have fun with.

810

:

Like,

811

:

Xhafer: They are not fun episodes.

812

:

Not even bad fun.

813

:

Laura: There's not something totally

ridiculous out there that I can

814

:

just be like, ha ha, I love it.

815

:

Xhafer: Where's my fucking appearances

and deceits and my guy fucking, you

816

:

know, Critiquing the uniforms because

that's the important thing to him,

817

:

Laura: He was pretty great.

818

:

Xhafer: Where's my Mimbari

Rangers who are like, dealing

819

:

under the table for no reason at

820

:

Laura: Yeah.

821

:

Xhafer: You know, where's my

Franklin or Lockley having a laugh?

822

:

Like,

823

:

even my Lady of the Bong Water.

824

:

None of it.

825

:

Just none of it.

826

:

Fucking,

827

:

Laura: we got weird shaped playing

cards and that was like our highlight.

828

:

Xhafer: weird shaped playing cards

does not an entertaining episode

829

:

Laura: Right.

830

:

It can't carry the whole show.

831

:

Like you gotta have

something else in there.

832

:

Xhafer: They weren't even that weird,

they just had like a little side cut out.

833

:

Laura: It's true.

834

:

Xhafer: Whatever we gave the

last one, no guns, no guns again.

835

:

Laura: no guns times two.

836

:

Xhafer: Will it happen a third time?

837

:

We'll find out when we watch the rules

of the game, the Excalibur goes to

838

:

Babylon 5 so that Gideon can meet with

an ambassador for permission to go to

839

:

a planet that might have technology to

help Earth, but the ambassador refuses

840

:

and Gideon is not going to accept it.

841

:

And Ellerson runs into his ex wife,

who is in trouble with a loan shark.

842

:

When he pays him off, he

feels like she owes him more.

843

:

Amph goes to great lengths to collect.

844

:

Laura: Amps.

845

:

Xhafer: Amph.

846

:

It's, it's period, capital A N F.

847

:

Laura: Huh.

848

:

Xhafer: This is the worst

episode description.

849

:

Laura: it's so long, like,

850

:

Xhafer: Every other one's been like 10

words and this is a fucking paragraph.

851

:

Laura: There's a lot of disbelief

I will suspend for sci fi.

852

:

Like, there's a lot of things I will

ignore and overlook and go ahead and

853

:

say, yeah, okay, I will not accept

that someone married Max Eilerson.

854

:

At any point.

855

:

Was she drunk?

856

:

Jesus.

857

:

Ugh.

858

:

Okay.

859

:

Well, we got one more.

860

:

We're gonna make

861

:

Xhafer: We got one more.

862

:

Hopefully we'll have a a

guest for this last one.

863

:

Maybe that will cheer us up a little

864

:

Laura: Oh, it always does.

865

:

Xhafer: I haven't gotten a confirmation

on the recording schedule yet, so I

866

:

don't wanna get anyone's hopes up.

867

:

But Ryan from Yum Yum.

868

:

Should be joining us for the next

869

:

Laura: I would love that.

870

:

I feel like he's got some shade he

can throw at Max Eilerson real hard.

871

:

Xhafer: Oh, for sure.

872

:

Uh I guess we've got that to look

forward to at the very least, even

873

:

if it's a bad episode, at least we'll

get to spend an hour hanging with a

874

:

Laura: Yes, exactly.

875

:

Xhafer: So with all that said, we

should probably say some thank yous

876

:

to anyone who's made it this far.

877

:

Laura: If you did, we

878

:

Xhafer: for we do.

879

:

Jeremy Siegel.

880

:

We love you.

881

:

Thank you so much for our theme music.

882

:

We really appreciate the hell out of it.

883

:

You can find more of Jeremy's

work at jeremyseagle42.

884

:

bandcamp.

885

:

com and on streaming

services as Nuclear Jaguar.

886

:

Laura: And thank you to angry

duck time machine on Instagram

887

:

for our podcast artwork.

888

:

Xhafer: We love you,

Angry Duck Time Machine.

889

:

And we love you, Aaron.

890

:

Thanks so much for editing the podcast.

891

:

Really appreciate the hell out of

892

:

Laura: Yeah.

893

:

If, if anything, there's one

person who made it to the end of

894

:

this Jaffer and it's Aaron, so

895

:

he's really doing the work, putting it in.

896

:

Xhafer: Yep.

897

:

Laura: And thanks listener for being here.

898

:

Sorry that, uh, we didn't have

some more entertaining material

899

:

to work with on this one.

900

:

Gosh,

901

:

Xhafer: I wish it was just

902

:

worse.

903

:

Like if it was, if it was just

bad and not just boring, I'd be

904

:

having a lot more fun with it.

905

:

Laura: Yeah, even

906

:

Xhafer: But here we are.

907

:

Laura: who is like a pretty generous, even

keel, not hyperbolic person when this one

908

:

was over was like, wow, that was boring.

909

:

Xhafer: It's rough.

910

:

Well, we'll see you next week, internet.

911

:

Laura: bye.

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About the Podcast

Who Are You?
A Babylon 5 Watchcast
Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.